Is my Compressor faulty?

[RAMI]

You don't understand. The final CD volume has nothing to do with your tracking volume. You're going to ruin your sound by putting a limiter on everything, when you don't need to. When you track and mix, you shouldn't be worrying about loudness. You need to turn down the tracks and turn up your monitors. If you want your CD to be louder, you accomplish that in the "mastering phase", not while you're tracking and mixing.

Dude, seriously, do some more reading before you spend more money when you don't need to. There's a lot of info about tracking levels (if someone has a link to Massive's article, that would be great). Don't worry about loudness until after you've recorded and mixed.

 

[ido1957]

I'm illiterate when it comes to that. What am I looking at and what does it prove?

The makeup gain on this unit's compressor section is a volume control, but it also has tubes/transformer in the path.

 

[miroslav]

You think? I always thought make up gain was the last thing in the chain and is just a volume and nothing else. But I might be wrong, I never really thought about it or played with it.

I'm sure there are all kinds of signal paths from comp to comp....but I would say in general, make-up gain is situated more in the front of the circuit, often the first thing, and so it drives the rest of the comp and affects your choices....whereas output volume is post-everything.

The make-up gain allows you to push the comp more/less, which usually yields more/less color, and the harder, the sooner it makes the comp react, than if you roll it back and/or leave it at unity.

On some comps that's all you get, no "output volume"...then on others there is no make-up gain, just the output volume...or some have both gain and output volume.
Usually the manual should tell you where in the path those things sit and how they interact with the everything else.

It's similar to what you see on many preamps...a gain knob that lets you increase the input signal to the preamp...and then an output knob that lets you set you signal level for whatever else you are driving downstream, to match it or drive it harder.
So if you have a pre with gain and output knpbs, and a comp with gain and output knobs...you can drive the comp more/less with the pre's output or the comp's gain...or some combinaiton of both..etc..etc...and often there are sweet spots that just seem to sound the best for a given source.

 

[RAMI]

I'm sure there are all kinds of signal paths from comp to comp....but I would say in general, make-up gain is situated more in the front of the circuit, often the first thing, and so it drives the rest of the comp and affects your choices....whereas output volume is post-everything.

The make-up gain allows you to push the comp more/less, which usually yields more/less color, and the harder, the sooner it makes the comp react, than if you roll it back and/or leave it at unity.

On some comps that's all you get, no "output volume"...then on others there is no make-up gain, just the output volume...or some have both gain and output volume.
Usually the manual should tell you where in the path those things sit and how they interact with the everything else.

It's similar to what you see on many preamps...a gain knob that lets you increase the input signal to the preamp...and then an output knob that lets you set you signal level for whatever else you are driving downstream, to match it or drive it harder.
So if you have a pre with gain and output knpbs, and a comp with gain and output knobs...you push the comp harder with the pre's output or the comp's gain...or some combinaiton of both..etc..etc.

Are you sure about that? I've never seen an increase in reduction as a result of turning up the Make-up gain, which should happen if I understand you correctly. I can't say for sure, but I don't think you're right when you say make-up gain is at the front. That doesn't make sense to me. How would it know how much to "make up" if it's not at the end of the chain? Sounds to me that you're talking about the Input gain, not the make up gain.

 

[Kriz]

I'm sure there are all kinds of signal paths from comp to comp....but I would say in general, make-up gain is situated more in the front of the circuit, often the first thing, and so it drives the rest of the comp and affects your choices....whereas output volume is post-everything.

The make-up gain allows you to push the comp more/less, which usually yields more/less color, and the harder, the sooner it makes the comp react, than if you roll it back and/or leave it at unity.

On some comps that's all you get, no "output volume"...then on others there is no make-up gain, just the output volume...or some have both gain and output volume.
Usually the manual should tell you where in the path those things sit and how they interact with the everything else.

It's similar to what you see on many preamps...a gain knob that lets you increase the input signal to the preamp...and then an output knob that lets you set you signal level for whatever else you are driving downstream, to match it or drive it harder.
So if you have a pre with gain and output knpbs, and a comp with gain and output knobs...you can drive the comp more/less with the pre's output or the comp's gain...or some combinaiton of both..etc..etc...and often there are sweet spots that just seem to sound the best for a given source.

Thanks, The Meeks got an output and input gain, I guess i learnt a bit on comps and someone may read this someday and learn a bit too

 

[bouldersoundguy]

If it's called make up gain it's pretty much at the end of the chain. There may be exceptions but that's the standard arrangement. Most of the mastering limiters I've used appear to have a gain control that drives the signal into the threshold, but I suppose they could be operating the threshold and make up gain in tandem.

 

[miroslav]

I've got a vintage AD&R unit in my rack that has "make-up" gain (that's how it's marked) at the front end, and it drives the comp, and there is NO additional output volume.
Like the OP pointed out, his Meek has both input gain AND output gain...so the term "gain" isn't always implied as the output volume.
I also have a Meek SC2.2...and it too has "Input Gain" and Ouput Gain...and another comp unit that has "Input" and "Make-Up Gain" on the output....and yet another that havs "Input Gain" and "Output Trim".

So I don't know if there's any real standard for what is called what..or where it sits in the circuit, and like I said....there's probably all kinds of circuits used in various units. I always like to check the manual and/or the schematics so I get a clear understanding of the interaction between all the options on a given unit because there are so many different types.

 

[BroKen_H]

So I don't know if there's any real standard for what is called what..or where it sits in the circuit, and like I said....there's probably all kinds of circuits used in various units. I always like to check the manual and/or the schematics so I get a clear understanding of the interaction between all the options on a given unit because there are so many different types.

^^^^This sounds very sensible, but how do you do that with a VST? I've never seen diagrams for signal path...

 

[RAMI]

The word "gain" doesn't matter. You can have "Input gain", "Output gain", "Make up gain", etc....."Gain" isn't the issue.

"Make up gain" is the same thing as "output gain". They'll use either word, but "Make up gain" is NOT "Input gain".

I've never seen "Make up gain" at the beginning of a circuit. Not once. Maybe it exists, but it would be a huge exception. I've never seen a compressor that doesn't increase the output volume when you increase the make up gain. It's always at the end. It's called "MAKE UP GAIN". It MAKES UP the gain lost from compressing. That's the very reason it exists, so that after you compress and lose some volume, the MAKE UP GAIN MAKES UP for that.

Please, can someone link me to a software compressor that has make up gain at the beginning of the circuit? I've yet to see one and I'll put money down that if it exists, you'd have trouble finding 3 that do that.

Unfortunately, we've also strayed from a very important issue in this thread. The OP still thinks that putting a limiter on each track is going to make his final CD louder. He's going to be in for a huge disappointment when he realizes that even after making his individual track as loud as possible, he's still not going to get anywhere near commercial CD volume. He needs to understand that he shouldn't be turning up his tracks. If he wants a louder CD, the limiter goes on the final mix, not on individual tracks. That will be a lot more helpful for him than us debating whether make up gain goes at the end of a circuit or not......even though it does.

 

[RAMI]

What is "Makeup Gain"?

"After your signal undergoes the gain reduction process of compression you need some way to bring the average overall level back up so that the signal sits in the mix appropriately. This can be done many different ways, however, it’s very easy and straight forward when the compressor has a final gain stage with a level control so the signal can be adjusted before it leaves the unit. This gain stage and its associated control are usually referred to as makeup gain."



Dynamic range compression - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"Makeup gain

Because the compressor is reducing the gain (or level) of the signal, the ability to add a fixed amount of make-up gain at the output is usually provided so that an optimum level can be used."

 

[JimmyS1969]

Some of you guys need coffee....

Sorry Miro, you will not win this argument of semantics by claiming you have a retarded/high end outboard unit that has something written on it that makes any difference as to what the reality of the common definition of 'makeup gain' is meaning....

Fuck, I ran out of breath there.

'Make up gain' by definition and even the way it should make you think by just reading it, is to 'make up' for the output gain after compression of the signal.

Sorry if I am being a grouchy ass, but this is a silly. I need a Redbull now.

 

[RAMI]

I need a Redbull now.

I once made coffee with Red Bull. I got half-way to work before I realized I forgot my car.

 

[JimmyS1969]

I once made coffee with Red Bull. I got half-way to work before I realized I forgot my car.

Wings!

 

[Steenamaroo]

LOL. Yeah. There's always an exception to justify debate but makeup gain is generally there to make up for the loss in volume resulting from compressing.
Compression alters dynamic range and outputs a lower signal than you started with. Make up gain lets you bring the signal roughly back to where it was.

Compressors with input gain usually have a fixed threshold.
Compressors with variable threshold don't usually have input gain.

 

[JimmyS1969]

I find that when I make up with my wife after an argument when drinking, I seem to have less to gain with my input by turning knobs. Maybe that is the confusion?

 

[RAMI]

I find that when I make up with my wife after an argument when drinking, I seem to have less to gain with my input by turning knobs. Maybe that is the confusion?

I hear that after a few years of marriage, wives tend to boost the low end, so you'll probably need an EQ, too.

 

[JimmyS1969]

I hear that after a few years of marriage, wives tend to boost the low end, so you'll probably need an EQ, too.

As long as the curve is still under control I can sweep that shit so that it make this bunny's ears ring.

---------- Update ----------

Oh yeah, happy friggen bunny day.

 

[miroslav]

Some of you guys need coffee....

Sorry Miro, you will not win this argument of semantics by claiming you have a retarded/high end outboard unit that has something written on it that makes any difference as to what the reality of the common definition of 'makeup gain' is meaning....

Fuck, I ran out of breath there.

'Make up gain' by definition and even the way it should make you think by just reading it, is to 'make up' for the output gain after compression of the signal.

Sorry if I am being a grouchy ass, but this is a silly. I need a Redbull now.

"sematics"...?



Ahhh...it's what's written on the faceplates as I stated previoulsy.
That's not just 'cuz it's some "retarded/high end outboard unit" (I guess you are feeling grumpy)....it's actually quite common to find and use make up gain on both inputs and outputs of hardware comps and other gear.
I think in pure ITB digital world, the whole signal chain/gain thing sometimes becomes "blurry"...but in hardware signal chains, make up gain can serve a purpose at front and back.

Simple example:
You have a preamp with not-too-great-gain or output level. So you now want to feed the comp, but the preamp just isn't hitting it hard engouh to make it do what you want (you're using a ribbon mic on top of it).
Sure, you can just lower your threshold, but that's not quite the same thing as having a hotter signal coming into the comp, is it...?...but, if you have an inpout gain knob, you can then make up that input gain (due to the low level preamp signal) in order to drive the comp harder at the input. Also...if the comp is tube-based, there may be additionl reasons to want to make up the gain at the input.

There are many signal chain scenarios and gear input/output designs. The ones that seem retarded to you...just avoid using them.

Happy Easter guys....enjoy your day!

 

[RAMI]

"sematics"...?



Ahhh...it's what's written on the faceplates as I stated previoulsy.
That's not just 'cuz it's some "retarded/high end outboard unit" (I guess you are feeling grumpy)....it's actually quite common to find/use input make up gain on inputs and outputs of hardware comps and other gear.
I think in pure ITB digital world, the whole signal chain/gain thing sometimes becomes "blurry"...but in hardware signal chains, make up gain can serve a purpose at front and back.

Simple example:
You have a preamp with not-too-great-gain or output level. So you now want to feed the comp, but the preamp just isn't hitting it hard engouh to make it do what you want (you're using a ribbon mic on top of it).
Sure, you can just lower your threshold, but that's not quite the same thing as having a hotter signal coming into the comp, is it...but if you have an inpout gain knob, you then make up the gain because of the low level preamp in order to drive the comp harder at the imput. Also...if the comp is tube-based, there may be additionl reasons to want to make up the gain at the input.

There are many signal chain scenarios and gear input/output designs. The ones that seem retarded to you...just avoid using them.

But what you're talking about is turning up the INPUT gain. Nobody's disputing that. The MAKE UP gain is something else entirely. The MAKE UP gain is at the end of the circuit and it MAKES UP the gain lost through compression. You somehow turned the INPUT gain into a MAKE UP gain, but they're 2 different things. If anything, in your example, you're basically using the INPUT gain of the compressor as a MAKE UP gain for the pre-amp by putting the INPUT of the compressor at the end of the chain of the pre-amp, in a sense. But the make up gain on a compressor is after the cmpression to MAKE UP the gain lost. I know I'm repeating myself over and over, but it's so simple that I can't believe we're having a discussion about it.

Meanwhile, TRIZ or whatever his name is, will still have a low volume, shitty sounding CD.

 

[miroslav]

... you're basically using the INPUT gain of the compressor as a MAKE UP gain for the pre-amp by putting the INPUT of the compressor at the end of the chain of the pre-amp, in a sense.

BINGO!


RAMI...I'm not disputing make-up gain at the output of a comp, and I get how that term is often seen on comps' back end.
I'm just saying that the terminology of "making up gain" doesn't only apply there....and comps are often fed by pres or something else that may have a low level output.
Like...WTF is "input gain"...?
It's *make-up" gain...and there are many comps that have that on their input.
Any gain knob, anywhere in the chain....is "making up" for signal....but it can also be used to turn it down.

My post was to simply say that there are ways to drive the comp at the front end if it has an input gain knob...as the OP was talking about a Joe Meek unit that has both input and output gain stages (and heck, smartly, they don't bother using the term "make up" at either...because "gain" is enough....though it's not always about boosting in order to make up for lower signal. I've had to turn down the output gain past unity at times because I was driving the front end hard already and the signal was too hot for the next piece of gear in the chain following the comp.
And...that it's not just about the gear before the comp....you can also use that simply to change how your comp reacts by driving it more/less and not only reaching for the threshold.

I had no intention to debate/argue terminology...it's a sunny day, I got studio shit to do today....it's a good mood.