Is IT worth buying a proper CD recorder

There are a couple things that need to get done when mixing OTB.

1. A/D conversion.

Obviously, you want the best converters you can get. Even if you have a 24 bit dat machine, the converters are a couple generations old by now. The conversion in even a cheap interface is better, plus you can use higher sample rates if you want. If the DAT machine is still 16 bit, you are using converters from the early to mid 90's.

The converters on the stand alone burner may be newer, but it still only stores 44.1k 16 bit information, most mastering houses would rather have 24 bits to work with. Handing in 44.1k 24 bit wav files is a much better way to go, you can even FTP them to the mastering house and save the FedEx charge.

As was mentioned, at $500 for a stand alone burner, how much of that is the conversion? If you already have a computer with a CD burner, getting a $500 interface would get you much better converters.

2. Track sequencing.
with a stand alone burner, you are stuck with how the burner decides to deal with song spacing and markers. If you make a mistake, you have to throw away the CD and start over.

In the computer with some software, you can crossfade songs and put the markers exactly where you want them. that's a big plus if you want to get creative with that sort of thing.

3. Burning
With a stand alone burner, you can only do one disc at a time in real time. I would assume that even if you used a stand alone, if you wanted to make copies, you would put it in the computer to copy the CD...so what's the difference? In the computer, you can sequence the CD once and burn it to a disc at 24 times real speed. You can save that sequence and, if you remix one of the tracks, replace the old track with the new one and burn another disc in a couple minutes instead of spending a lot of time recreating another CD in real time.

It's all digital. You might like the converters in one thing over another, but if you are buying a Tascam CD burner and a Tascam audio interface, I'll bet you that the converters are the same. If they aren't, I'll bet the ones in the interface are better/newer because that is where the technology is going.

On other advantage to using the computer is upgradability. You can upgrade your interface without changing the software or the CD burner in the computer. You can also upgrade the burner without changing anything else. If one part of the system breaks, there are hundreds of choices and thousands of people that can help you get it fixed (Geek Squad, etc...)

In order to upgrade the stand alone unit, you have to get rid of the whole thing and get a new one. If anything goes wrong with it, you are hard pressed to send it across the country to find someone who can fix it for $300 more than a new one costs.
 
geez its starting to sound like the 470 i paid for the DAT walkman was a waste of money!!!
might be the thing to sell and use the cash or a better interface and PT9...
 
I'm of the school of thought that unless there's a specific reason to want an external CD Recorder, a decent sound-card would be just fine. I have an all-in-one card, probably early 2000's, got it for less than $100, and I can get a virtually indistinguishable copy (from the original source) via the line IN - all 16 / 44 (but I have 24 / 96 as option). It's more convenient, flexible and cost effective than a stand alone. Plus, you'd have to spend a lot more for a CD recorder which can also write to typical CD-R's (and not just special Audio CD'R's). The costs associated are not worth it, IMHO, especially when you can get a nice sound-card for a fraction. In a nutshell, I would always go from original tape to line in, sound-card, no in-betweens. ;)
 
I don't mean to hi-jack the thread but what do you guys think of stand alone CD PLAYERS?:confused:
 
[/URL] I've got stacks of the things on spindles in my closet and stored away - old test mixes, copies, originals... UUUGGGHHH!!! and i'd think it was even worse if i had each one in it's own little plastic "jewel" case....

its kind of neat that they're round with a hole in the middle - i'll give them that...:D

It's a drag finalizing a cd with one song on it isn't. I try to avoid that as much as possible myself. Always on cassette for rough mixing.
 
I also forgot to mention that there are only a couple of companies that make all the CD burner mechanisms. So there will be no mechanical difference between the burner in the stand alone unit and the one in your computer.

Another thing is resale value. Trying to sell a piece of older digital hardware is very hard. I have five Tascam DA-88's that were almost $5000 each when new. Now, the working ones are worth about $250. The broken ones can be fixed for $800 and end up being worth about $250.

I have a couple of old DA-30 DAT machines, they are worth $50 each...assuming they still work. I haven't tried to turn them on in 5-6 years.
 
I have a couple of old DA-30 DAT machines, they are worth $50 each...

If you're lucky to get even that much! :D

I have a DA-30 (it like-new), it’s one of the first to come off the assembly.
I don’t use it for anything anymore. It really is a shame, they were pretty cool when they came out (and they weren’t cheap).
Of all recording technologies/formats...DAT had to be one of the fastest to hit obsolescence. I think it was obsolete in less time than it took to develop.
 
whoah

I think i paid way too much for mine. 470 australian just a few months ago. It is brand new though and had 10 new tapes with it.
Its a sony TCD8 portable walkman type.
see if i can get something for it and put the cash towards a better interface...
I thought it was good for masters...
 
Another thing is resale value. Trying to sell a piece of older digital hardware is very hard. I have five Tascam DA-88's that were almost $5000 each when new. Now, the working ones are worth about $250. The broken ones can be fixed for $800 and end up being worth about $250.

Uh huh. Tascam saw you and me coming. I have 5 DA-78's at $3K each = $15K. Not one of them has a hundred hours on it and only one works. Convertors sound nice though, fwiw. And a DM24 with every option including lines in the screen. $20k wasted, all told. :drunk:
 
If you are talking about typical PC soundcards (what comes with the computer)...I agree.
But AFA outboard A/D/A DAW converters that you add to your PC...not really. I think most decent, dedicated A/D/A converters will be equal to or better than what you find on a standalone CD burner.

I also don't mix ITB.
I come out of my DAW and mix through my analog console to a 1/4" deck...but then I take the output from the deck (PB head) and it goes right back into the DAW at 24/88.2 through my outboard A/D/A converters…so I can do the final mastering in the digital domain (which is preferred unless you have some high-end analog mastering equipment).
By going back into the DAW, it lets me also choose HOW I want to do the SRC and dither down to 16/44.1...you don't get those choices when you mix directly to a standalone CD burner.

Yeah, you can't get around going back to the DAW when doing your mastering that way. But I master in analog... no plugs or digital editing. My mastering EQ, Compression and any final spatial processing are all done with outboard gear. When going from tape directly to the CD burner you don't have to worry about SRC. I prefer A/D conversion to SRC. That is, I'd normally rather resample to the rate of the end medium than convert.

High-end mastering equipment to me is whatever works. It doesn't have to be costly if you know what to look for... whatever sounds good.

So my conversion from analog to digital is truly the last step in the process. I use the burner in the PC for making copies from the master CD of course.

It’s all about the sound to me, so I recommend the way that has personally given me the best sonic outcome for the sort of music I do. There's certainly more than one way to skin a cat in this case… I just prefer to skin it this way.

By the way, where did that saying come form anyway? Truth is I like cats and would never skin one. Well, that made me stop and think anyway.
 
The price for the HHB-850 or Fostex CR300 is around $300.00 used. You can only get these models used now. The price has come down a lot, which makes it even more attractive. One advantage about professional stand-alone burners or stand-alone anything for that matter is that they're designed and built for one purpose. When you're trying to make something work with a PC you're piecing it together. Every component of the PC impacts how each component will perform. You may find a happy combination that will work, but the same soundcard may be limited in someone else’s crappy PC. A stand-alone is going to work the same for everyone because it’s a unified design from the get-go.

:)
 
So Beck, do you think its worth to keep and use My DAT machine for the mixdown process or is it pointless?
Sounds like you can master straight to the CD recorder and if happy can burn a disc. Im wondering if theres any point to go to DAT then to CD??
I was almost sold on the idea of using an interface converter but the mbox isnt so good and i would have to buy another interface. Im pretty much over DAW. I actually think its rubbish for what i do. Hate using a mouse, screen to make music. Id be more than happy to remove it from the mix. Mbox2 is on ebay now.
 
I have a DAT Walkman but the only thing I use it for is field recordings. It does fine for that but the converters aren't great ...... you have to record at around -12db on its' meter or it'll destort for one thing.

I do everything pretty much like Beck does so I have a couple of Masterlinks that I like a lot.
They're getting kinda old too though.
 
High-end mastering equipment to me is whatever works. It doesn't have to be costly if you know what to look for... whatever sounds good.

Yeah...that leaves the door open….

Decent analog gear could be used for a "mastering" stage. I've got a couple pretty high-end EQs, and the same with a couple of comp/limiter boxes...but they still aren't mastering grade.
I know a lot of that can be subjective...AFA what is mixing VS mastering equipment, but the non-mastering gear just doesn't have the precision adjustment capability or the perfectly calibrated, balanced & locked L/R imaging that mastering gear does. You really got to drop several $k per item to get that.
So while it is possible to just "use your ears" and go with that, I find that in the DAW, I get more "accurate" processing when it comes to the mastering stage.

I tried some of my analog gear for mastering...and I could get it to sound pretty good, but the DAW options were better. I do prefer analog for the first couple of steps...tracking, mixing...but IMO, for editing and for mastering, you can't beat a DAW in most cases.
Not to mention, when creating various MP3 files for Internet distribution...it's better to work off the 24bit (32-float internal) files rather than 16/44.1. Even the mastering houses that work in "analog" actually end up doing final conversions to 24bit and some high sample rates BEFORE they do the 16/44.1 conversion. I don't think many of them simply go direct to 16/44.1 from analog. There’s just too many reasons to capture/convert at the higher bit rate, and of course, many will prefer to also use very high sample rates for that initial conversion.

But hey...we go with what we have and what works for us...that's what I do!
We can spend time whining about gear we don't have...or just make do with what we DO have. :)
 
It's a drag finalizing a cd with one song on it isn't. I try to avoid that as much as possible myself. Always on cassette for rough mixing.

I use CD-RW's ........ test mix ..... finalize it to listen on different systems ..... then erase it when done.
 
Uh huh. Tascam saw you and me coming. I have 5 DA-78's at $3K each = $15K. Not one of them has a hundred hours on it and only one works.
IN 1995 the DA-78's didn't exist and the DA-88's were so new that there wasn't any on the used market. ADAT's were less expensive, but once you factored in the cost of spare machines for when the main machines were in the shop and the cost of fixing the ADAT's every six weeks, it was worth it.

Of course now, the DA-78's are only worth hundreds of dollars on the used market. Vintage digital is a money loser. Almost without fail digital gear gets better and less expensive over time. Which makes old digital gear worse and worthless.
 
Im wondering if theres any point to go to DAT then to CD??

...


I was almost sold on the idea of using an interface converter but the mbox isnt so good and i would have to buy another interface. Im pretty much over DAW. I actually think its rubbish for what i do. Hate using a mouse, screen to make music. Id be more than happy to remove it from the mix. Mbox2 is on ebay now.

If the DAT has better converters (doubt it)...otherwise no real benefit.

...


Well...if you just don't want to work with a DAW, that's fine...it's not my preferred way to record, but while I was 110% "analog rules, DAWs and digital suck" just a few years back, mainly because I grew up with tape and my tape rig was well known to me...
...I got away from that thinking once I dove in a little deeper into DAWs/digital.

Now I run a hybrid rig (track & mix in analog, edit and master in the DAW) and I find it's the best way to go for most situations.
The DAW just adds so much power to the recording/production process that it's hard not to appreciate, and digital...well, these days it all ends up digital in the end...doesn't it? :)

But yeah...working with a mouse sucks ass.
Get a trackball instead! ;)
 
So Beck, do you think its worth to keep and use My DAT machine for the mixdown process or is it pointless?
Sounds like you can master straight to the CD recorder and if happy can burn a disc. Im wondering if theres any point to go to DAT then to CD??
I was almost sold on the idea of using an interface converter but the mbox isnt so good and i would have to buy another interface. Im pretty much over DAW. I actually think its rubbish for what i do. Hate using a mouse, screen to make music. Id be more than happy to remove it from the mix. Mbox2 is on ebay now.
I would be willing to bet that the conversion in the M-box is better than the conversion in your protable DAT. If that DAT is only 16 bit, that would a be a deal breaker right there.

For the most part, all low end converters are about the same. A real step up in conversion starts close to $1000 for stereo conversion. Any piece of hardware made in the last 4-5 years under $1000 for 2 channels is going to have pretty much the same quality of conversion, all other things being equal.
 
Back
Top