Is it better to plug the mics into the xlr or the 1/4" inputs of the 424mkIII? (help

[SeaOwl]

Is it better to plug the mics into the xlr or the 1/4" inputs of the 424mkIII? (help

I'm running some mics through dmp-3 pres into the 424mkIII.
The 424 allows mics to be plugged in through either an xlr plug or a 1/4" plug. My question is, since the dmp-3 only has 1/4 " outs, does it make any significant difference if i use 1/4" connectors to connect the pres to the mkIII? or should i try to get 1/4" to xlr plugs to connect the pres to the tascam?

THanks for your help
(and sorry for posting this twice. i got two answers last time i posted this, one saying to go in 1/4 inch and the other saying to go in xlr, so they kind of canelled each other out).

My best,
Dave

 

[Derek Verner]

XLR is considered better because it is more exotic. Actually both are the same.

 

[cjacek]

XLR is considered better because it is more exotic. Actually both are the same.

I agree. No difference at all. Some would actually argue that the 1/4" is better but having tried both, I say they're both similar.

Daniel

 

[SeaOwl]

thanks so much for the help
D

 

[cjacek]

Actually, a slight addition to my earlier post:

I can't remember if it was the 424mkIII or 414mkII or both that I tried the xlr or 1/4" and it seemed to be at the time that the signal to noise ratio was better on the XLR. Now, I've also used a vintage porta 244 and 246 and both have 1/4" only and the quality is better than the 424/414's XLR's. I'm not sure what the conclussion is.

Daniel

 

[formerlyfzfile]

Aren't the 424 input for different levels???

I mean ....I have a 424MKII and its been quite a while since I lost the manual, but aren't the XLR inputs configured for a Mic level signal and the TRS for a Line level signal????

Or are they both dual purpose???

Thats the way many mixers are configured isnt it?


-mike

 

[ronsmith]

tascam 424 inputs

I thought the xlr were mike level and 1/4 were line level.

 

[cjacek]

Re: tascam 424 inputs

I thought the xlr were mike level and 1/4 were line level.

I think you're right ron. 1/4" doesn't necessarily mean mic level and on the 424mkIII that seems to be the case. My vintage 244 and 246 portas, however, have only 1/4 inch BUT they're mic level. Every bit as good (as relating to s/n ratio) as xlr's on the 424.

Daniel

 

[johneeeveee]

244 inputs

...so, if the 1/4 inputs on my 244 are mic level, does that mean i could benefit from using a balanced trs cable going in? i use an outboard mic pre blended with the 244's on board pre's, and the outboard pre has balanced trs outs. should i use a balanced cable, or would a regular 1/4 do just fine?
thanks - jv

 

[cjacek]

Re: 244 inputs

...so, if the 1/4 inputs on my 244 are mic level, does that mean i could benefit from using a balanced trs cable going in? i use an outboard mic pre blended with the 244's on board pre's, and the outboard pre has balanced trs outs. should i use a balanced cable, or would a regular 1/4 do just fine?
thanks - jv

Just wanted to add to my previous post that the 244/246 1/4" inputs accept both mic and line level signals. Thus, I believe, you're fine using whatever 1/4" cable you've got. If I'm wrong then could someone please jump in ?

Daniel

 

[johneeeveee]

... do you think there would be any s/n ratio benefit in using the balanced trs cable?
thanks - jv (fellow old skool 244 user)

 

[A Reel Person]

Well,... the XLR inputs are balanced, and the 1/4" inputs are TS/UNbalanced,...

so you should NOT use a balanced TRS 1/4" input cable.

I checked the 424mkIII manual. There's a 10db difference, spread in sensitivity between the XLR and 1/4" jacks, as follows:...

-The XLR inputs will sense a MINIMUM signal -10db LESS than the 1/4" jacks, & MAXIMUM level is also -10db LESS than the 1/4" jacks.

AND...

-The 1/4" jacks' bottom limit will sense a MINIMUM signal +10db HIGHER than the XLR, but it will also accept a MAXIMUM signal +10db HIGHER than the XLR jacks.

There's just a little more pad, [resistance/impedance] in the 1/4" jack than the XLR jack, and that was fashioned by design, to allow the 1/4" jack to accept hotter input levels, like from electric guitar.

424mkIII, XLR:
[TRIM=MIC, 1mV MINIMUM],
[TRIM=LINE, 0.1V NOMINAL],
[TRIM=LINE, 1.4V MAXIMUM],
Impedance, 3.6K ohm.

424mkIII, 1/4" unbalanced jacks:
[TRIM=MIC, 3mV MINIMUM],
[TRIM=LINE, 0.3V NOMINAL],
[TRIM=LINE, 3V MAXIMUM],
Impedance, 5.6K ohm.

SO, on a 424mkIII Portastudio, given that there are minor differences of the XLR and 1/4" minimum sensitivity, nominal & max input levels, I believe both XLR & 1/4" jacks can be used with either mic or line, as long as you adjust the TRIM properly, and don't exceed minimum & maximum limits. Also, don't use XLR and 1/4" inputs on any channel simultaneously.

If your preamp's output is -10db/nominal balanced signal on 1/4" TRS, then your best bet is to use a balanced cable and balanced-to-unbalanced transformer/adapter, directly to the 1/4" LINE TS/UNbalanced inputs, with thePorta's trim turned all the way down, [TRIM=LINE].

You could use the XLR connectors if your preamp's output is -10db/nominal on XLR, but you'll have to compensate in LOWERING THE PREAMP'S output -10db, [to -20db/nominal], in order to match the higher sensitivity and lower nominal signal you'll need on the XLR, [TRIM=LINE].

I wouldn't use an external preamp, necessarily, but whatever floats your boat is okay with me. However, when using an external preamp with a Portastudio, the gain staging is twice as important.

The 424mkIII lacks a true overload LED, that the 244 and 246 provided, so you'll have to be extra careful to not overdrive the input stage, when using a 424 with an external mic pre.

 

[johneeeveee]

hey reel,

... so, please forgive my ignorance here, but i was asking about the 244 inputs. i know you don't condone using mic pre's with the porta's, but i'm still wondering if i have a balanced signal coming out of my mic pre, if i could get a better s/n ratio by using a balanced trs cable into my 244. are the 1/4 inch mic/line inputs on the 244 the same as the 1/4 inch line inputs on the 424? i was under the assumption that the 244 inputs might take a broader range of signal, therefore a balanced line might give me a quieter signal.
thanks for taking the time to answer this specific question... you are definitely the man when it comes to these tascam porta's.
peace - jv

 

[A Reel Person]

I have a 9yo breathing down my neck for computer time!

I aimed my previous answer at the 424mkIII, so I'll consider the other questions, & check the 244 manual if necessary, in a short while! BRB!_

 

[A Reel Person]

In general, regarding the 244,...

the quick answer is that if you're using an external preamp, you may use the 1/4" inputs and OL led to set up a connection, or FWIW, you may undo the ACCESS-SND-RCV jumpers, and patch the preamp's output directly into the RCA-unbalanced inputs,... given that your preamp will deliver a -10db unbalanced line signal on RCA connectors.

I'll reread all the questions, and maybe address more later.

 

[A Reel Person]

If your preamp outputs a nominal -10db line signal on TRS/balanced 1/4" jacks,...

then I'd recommend using a 3-conductor/balanced cable that had a male/TRS connector on one end, and a male/XLR on the other end, with one of those female-XLR-to-male-1/4"-UNBAL transformer-adapters,... connected to the 1/4" unbalaced input of the 244, trim set to LINE.

That sounds like the easiest combination.

I did not check the 244 manual for exact specs, TBD.

 

[chessparov]

It's quieter to use the "inserts", to avoid going though the pre and EQ section. Harvey Gerst told me this in response to almost the same question, at his forum at www.prosoundweb.com BTW.

Your gain will drop to about 51dB, however, as the DMP3 has 66 dB of gain going XLR to XLR. One trick is to patch a compressor in the chain if you need a bit more signal boost for line level.

For example, I can go;

SM57>VTB-1>(unbalanced)RNC>(insert)Tascam 244.

Chris

P.S. As Reel indicated, sometimes you have to play around with
the signal chain gain settings to even things out.

 

[A Reel Person]

Re: In general, regarding the 244,...

the quick answer is that if you're using an external preamp, you may use the 1/4" inputs and OL led to set up a connection, or FWIW, you may undo the ACCESS-SND-RCV jumpers, and patch the preamp's output directly into the RCA-unbalanced inputs,... given that your preamp will deliver a -10db unbalanced line signal on RCA connectors.

I'll reread all the questions, and maybe address more later.

 

[johneeeveee]

244 setup

so, here's my signal chain:

mic--> xlr cable--> vtb-1(mic pre) --> 1/4 unbal--> mic/line 244

i mix the trim on the 244 pre's with the vtb-1 output and get a much quieter signal than i normally could with just the 244 pre's (although they seem to help round out the sound... they do sound very good, just not quite quiet enough when pushed a bit).

does this seem logical, or is there some other way that might work better (s/n ratio)?

maybe?:

mic--> xlr cable--> vtb-1(mic pre) --> xlr cable/line bal trans--> 244

i realize that although my vtb-1 has balanced xlr and trs outs, the 1/4" mic/line inputs on my 244 are unbalanced, so i'm guessing a (short) unbalanced 1/4" cable is probably as good as it's gonna get, signalwise... right?

thanks for all the help - jv

 

[A Reel Person]

I believe the unbalanced 1/4" cable between the vtb1 and 244 should do it!

Just keep the unbalanced cable to a minimum length, if possible, otherwise, unbalanced cable not to exceed ~12'.

You should do just fine with that!

Yes, having the 244's OL LED is an excellent guide to gain setting on inputs. I don't know why Tascam did away with all the OL LED's in all it's later models? The [4] input OL LEDs are a huge benefit to have, onboard. Also, on the 244, you get the two OL LED's for the L/R buss. Sweet!