is API overkill for me?

[chessrock]

I'd rather spend the money now on stuff that I'm going to stick with and I could potentially not lose money on if I ever did decide to sell it. I think with the API stuff, it's a solid investment.

That's really good reasoning.

So, back to my original question, Is there anything better for rock drums than API? -OR- maybe I should be asking; If I get the API pres, will I then need to get 451's & RE-20's?

Don't overlook the Old School Audio pres. (www.oldschoolaudio.com). In particular, they have what they call their "Vintage" edition, which sounds pretty damn good, and it might as well be an API.

ChessRock;
What would you suggest for overheads? KM184's? And, no, I don't expect this to get major airplay, but I think I could benefit from making the best sounding recordings that I can.

Well, based on the fact that you're currently using the NT-5's, I'm assuming there is something about them that you like working with? Obviously, overhead mics come in all shapes and sizes, and much of it depends on your personal taste, and what will work well with your current setup, given your needs.

If you just want something ruler-flat and honest, natural, not-hyped, etc., then I'd get a pair of Avenson's : http://www.avensonaudio.com/sto2.html I wouldn't worry about the whole omni-pattern thing. You've got those high ceilings, so it's just possible that your room could be a net positive in this equation.

If you really want something to tame the cymbals, that's slightly rolled off at the top ... somewhat dark and easy on the transients, then you might look at a pair of Groove Tubes GT-44's. I actually have one with the hypercard capsule that I use on snare, and it really seems to come to life on drums.

If you're interested, at all, in some very under-the-radar mics that haven't gotten nearly the attention they deserve, have a look at these : http://www.fullcompass.com/Products/pages/SKU--55163/index.html Call fullcompass for a price on them, and you might shit a brick.

Finally, if you want something bright and flattering in the high end, and scooped in the middle, then I'd look at a pair of Blue Dragonflies. Not usually my thing, but some people really dig them. Aside from the Dragonflies, these should all be some very affordable options that would provide a good step-up in the Overhead department.


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[Henri Devill]

Overkill...Sure why not I'll second the OSA's.The lunchbox idea is definetly a good one! Mix and match API's,Purples,BA's and OSA's For overheads I'm likeing Shures KSM44's right now GT44's are pretty cool too for less cash..but really most decent mics will work {dependent on what you are going for}.Its all a matter of a good kit and pointing the bitches till you hear what you like

 

[Reggie]

It looks like the things I would upgrade are:
1. bass absorbtion. I can't imagine not needing some bass absorbtion in a room like that (crazy high ceilings you have, BTW). That will go a ways to clearing up your sound. Maybe use some diffusion on the ceiling too?
2. Overhead mics. NT5's may be OK, but there are a lot better options out there. A lot of the clarity of the drum kit comes from your overhead choice. Josephson C42's can be had for cheap.
3. Monitors. I didn't see you list what you were using, but good monitors help in so many ways throughout the recording process.

But the API will be fun too if you decide to go that route.

 

[xstatic]

This is certainly not to diss the OSA stuff, but if you want API or the API sound, than OSA is not the way to go in my opinion. A few months ago we did a primitive comparison between some pre's and mics. Among the list were D&R, Chandler TG2, API 512c, OSA "A" and "C" models. All of the preamps did pretty well on every source we tried, but every time there was a distinct difference between the OSA preamps and the API's. Of course in the end, which one is better for each source certainly depends on each individual listener and what they like. Then you have to factor in how each pre reacts with each different mic and mic placement etc.. However, when it came down to drums (kick in this case for this particular day) the API was by far my favorite, and 3 out of 4 of us definately liked it better. All 4 of us were able to easily notice a pretty substantial difference between the sound of the API and the OSA "A" and "C" models. The "A" model I believe is the one that people say is similar to the API. As an interesting point, 3 out of 4 us picked the API as our favorite on kick, and the Chandler as a close second. After that 2 of us decided we liked the D&R better than the OSA's as well. But, in the end, it only matters what YOU like (or your clients). I would imagine that the API's also retain their value better as well. If you really want to go the Lunchbox route, you might want to consider getting your rack from OSA, and then your preamps as API's. The OSA rack is definately less expensive than the equivalent API's. Down the road you may still want to add some OSA stuff, Purple, Tonelux etc...

 

[NL5]

However, I would seriously consider adding some different drum mics before you spend all that money opn API's. One nice thing though about the API preamps is that in a few years you could sell them for almost what you paid for them. They hold their value extremely well. If you want the API sound, I would also advise that you actually buy API, and not a clone. So far the only "clone" I have heard that really comes close is the Averill ones.

I agree with this 100%. After seeing your setup, I think you have a decent setup all around. The cost to performance ratio really goes up when you try and get better from where you are at. To me, just upgrading to the api will do little though. I would, as xstatic said, upgrade your drum mics first - especially the overheads.

All in all, I really do like my API's - I am just finishing a new track that is LIGHT YEARS ahead of my last project - but, along with the API's and GR, I upgraded mics, converters, the room, and my ability has come a LONG way......

edit - one other thing - what kind of compressor are you using???

 

[MadMax]

one other thing - what kind of compressor are you using???

I'm not compressing going in. I don't think compression going in is as critical these days as it was going to tape (but I could be wrong). And in Sonar, I'm using Sonitus-which, as I said before, to my ears sounds as good as Waves Ren.-And if I've just lowered the bar by saying that, please let me know! I'm still learning

I'm gonna look into the KM-184's or Josephson C42's for OH's.

Reggie-

bass absorbtion. I can't imagine not needing some bass absorbtion in a room like that (crazy high ceilings you have, BTW). That will go a ways to clearing up your sound. Maybe use some diffusion on the ceiling too?

I agree there may be some rogue LF waves up there, but I don't hear them anywhere, and they don't show up in any of my waveforms. (is that a valid test?) I guess I could shoot some pink noise in there and run a S/A. But I haven't been too concerned about it since I'm close micing and I do have some ghetto LF absorption, i.e.; couch along one wall in front of kik, stocked bookshelves in 3 corners (6' tall) and the 4th corner is a 6' diagonal door entry wall. Behind the drums is a carpeted stairway behind a half wall going to an upstairs hallway. On 2 walls, one in front of the drums and one to the left (hihat side) 8' above the floor the ceiling comes in towards the drums (about 6' on the front side and 3' to the left) before the walls continue up another 16'. Point is there's a lot to break up the L.F. and I'm not really micing the room.

UPDATE- I just discovered Seventh Circle and I'm pretty handy with a soldering iron. I used to be a VCR/Audio tech. Sounds like a way to save some cash or get more variety. What's the verdict on these?

 

[BigRay]

I havent seen much about 7th circle but I have seen quite a bit about HAMPTONE which are DIY tube pres. All good reports.

I'm not compressing going in. I don't think compression going in is as critical these days as it was going to tape (but I could be wrong). And in Sonar, I'm using Sonitus-which, as I said before, to my ears sounds as good as Waves Ren.-And if I've just lowered the bar by saying that, please let me know! I'm still learning

I'm gonna look into the KM-184's or Josephson C42's for OH's.

Reggie-

I agree there may be some rogue LF waves up there, but I don't hear them anywhere, and they don't show up in any of my waveforms. (is that a valid test?) I guess I could shoot some pink noise in there and run a S/A. But I haven't been too concerned about it since I'm close micing and I do have some ghetto LF absorption, i.e.; couch along one wall in front of kik, stocked bookshelves in 3 corners (6' tall) and the 4th corner is a 6' diagonal door entry wall. Behind the drums is a carpeted stairway behind a half wall going to an upstairs hallway. On 2 walls, one in front of the drums and one to the left (hihat side) 8' above the floor the ceiling comes in towards the drums (about 6' on the front side and 3' to the left) before the walls continue up another 16'. Point is there's a lot to break up the L.F. and I'm not really micing the room.

UPDATE- I just discovered Seventh Circle and I'm pretty handy with a soldering iron. I used to be a VCR/Audio tech. Sounds like a way to save some cash or get more variety. What's the verdict on these?

 

[Reggie]

Reggie-

I agree there may be some rogue LF waves up there, but I don't hear them anywhere, and they don't show up in any of my waveforms. (is that a valid test?) I guess I could shoot some pink noise in there and run a S/A. But I haven't been too concerned about it since I'm close micing and I do have some ghetto LF absorption, i.e.; couch along one wall in front of kik, stocked bookshelves in 3 corners (6' tall) and the 4th corner is a 6' diagonal door entry wall. Behind the drums is a carpeted stairway behind a half wall going to an upstairs hallway. On 2 walls, one in front of the drums and one to the left (hihat side) 8' above the floor the ceiling comes in towards the drums (about 6' on the front side and 3' to the left) before the walls continue up another 16'. Point is there's a lot to break up the L.F. and I'm not really micing the room.

UPDATE- I just discovered Seventh Circle and I'm pretty handy with a soldering iron. I used to be a VCR/Audio tech. Sounds like a way to save some cash or get more variety. What's the verdict on these?

Aw yeah! Join the SCA brotherhood! I think they are awesome. The A12's may not sound exactly like API's, but a lot of people who are actually recording engineers (average people will not tell them apart) have a hard time telling them apart or prefer the A12's altogether. Then you can also have some N72's alongside and really get into the fun flavor. If a person has any ability to learn how to solder, they should really give SCA a look.

About the bass trapping thing, I don't know having not heard your room; but your symptoms of lacking clarity just screams needing bass absorbtion. It is a hard thing to hear sometimes in a room you are used to. But once you get mics going and picking up all the stray waves and stuff, it kind of builds up in the mix and EQing becomes more of a chore. It isn't always the low low what-you-might-typically-think-of-as-bass like 60 or 80 Hz that is the trouble when tracking; often times it is the more natural-room-sounding 150-400Hz area that is a nuisance. And LF doesn't really get "broken-up" as easily as you might think. It kind of bounces around for a while until its energy runs out, or it gets absorbed by something sufficiently dense (not carpet). Sounds like you focused more on diffusion, which is also good to do in a big room. And whether you think you are micing the room or not, you are.

 

[ndycus1]

My advice is to go ahead and buy the API. In all likelihood, you won't be disappointed at all with the quality of the pres. Not saying that I've used APIs or anything near that range. But, you know that you want them. And you know you'll never need to upgrade them. I'm not saying that you don't have other problems (such as the possiblity of your room being an issue). But, who knows when the next time you'll have the funds to purchase API pres will be. Your room is something that you'll be able to treat gradually. This is something that you'll need to go all out on at one time. If I had anywhere close to enough money to buy a few channels of API, I definitely would. And again, better pres can never be overkill.

 

[NL5]

My advice is to go ahead and buy the API. In all likelihood, you won't be disappointed at all with the quality of the pres. Not saying that I've used APIs or anything near that range.

You are suggesting something that not only have you not used, but not used anything anywhere near it???????

I think you really should post a clip - I think that would help asess your situation better.

Again, the API's will certainly make things better, but they won't fix a bad room, a bad mic, bad mic placement, etc, etc, etc......

 

[ndycus1]

i should post a clip, or he should?

and his question wasn't "should i learn how to place mics better?" and it wasn't "does my room suck?". his topic question was "is API overkill for me?" and i didn't say that it would fix his problem. i merely said that he wouldn't be disappointed with API's.

the API's will certainly make things better

and apparently we agree on that.

 

[NL5]

i should post a clip, or he should?

and his question wasn't "should i learn how to place mics better?" and it wasn't "does my room suck?". his topic question was "is API overkill for me?" and i didn't say that it would fix his problem. i merely said that he wouldn't be disappointed with API's.



and apparently we agree on that.

He should post a clip..........

and, like I said, I think the API is overkill if you are getting a bad sound with what he has - it will still sound bad with the API........

 

[tkingen]

I suppose it can be fun for a while. Until reality sets in, and you're basically just staring at a box with buttons and holes in it.

.

You must know my ex-wife?

 

[MadMax]

OK, I wanna post a clip. How do I do it so you can click on a link and it'll launch WMP? COuld I do that with yousendit?

EDIT; OK, I'll try usendit. here it is. This is just the raw tracks with no processing. I mixed the levels a little and checked phasing. I took out the plugs I was using. I think it's a fair representation of what was recorded to my HD.
Is there any easier way to post this so it'll automatically launch a player without having to unzip it? Anyway.....

So what do you golden ears think?

 

[Reggie]

Yeah that sounds pretty good. I still think you could benefit by using some more open overhead mics. And after that, some wicked preamps just might be the trick for you. If nothing else, they can be a great placebo!


If you are going the SCA route, I would highly recommend A12's for overheads, and N72's for Kick & snare .

 

[MadMax]

Waddya mean "open" overhead mics? And thanks for listening.

 

[NL5]

OK, I wanna post a clip. How do I do it so you can click on a link and it'll launch WMP? COuld I do that with yousendit?

EDIT; OK, I'll try usendit. here it is. This is just the raw tracks with no processing. I mixed the levels a little and checked phasing. I took out the plugs I was using. I think it's a fair representation of what was recorded to my HD.
Is there any easier way to post this so it'll automatically launch a player without having to unzip it? Anyway.....

So what do you golden ears think?

Well after listening to the clip, I say you have more of a mic/mic placement problem. I think the next issue is the room. Followed by converters. Then the preamps.

Here is my last drum sample 100% raw including some serious phase issues (which later got "fixed-in-the-mix"). Preamps that were used include some great Preamps, and some so-so preamps. I tell ya what - I bet most people couldn't tell me what mics went thru the so-so pre's, and what went thru the API's.....

 

[MadMax]

Mister 5;
Yours sounds good. Yes, it's cleaner than mine. To me, yours sounds like it's built around the OH's. What was your OH placement? What kind of mics did you use for OH's? What do you think is wrong with my mics/mic placement? Do you think there are some phasing issues being introduced by my placement? Where can you hear it? I guess the way to dissect my sound would be to let you hear just the OH's and then the kik mic(s), and then the snare, etc.....

 

[Outlaws]

Well after listening to the clip, I say you have more of a mic/mic placement problem. I think the next issue is the room. Followed by converters. Then the preamps.

Here is my last drum sample 100% raw including some serious phase issues (which later got "fixed-in-the-mix"). Preamps that were used include some great Preamps, and some so-so preamps. I tell ya what - I bet most people couldn't tell me what mics went thru the so-so pre's, and what went thru the API's.....

I think the toms sound good. Not to say those are the expensive pres...just saying whatever your combo on them is good and works.

 

[Outlaws]

Mister 5;
Yours sounds good. Yes, it's cleaner than mine. To me, yours sounds like it's built around the OH's. What was your OH placement? What kind of mics did you use for OH's? What do you think is wrong with my mics/mic placement? Do you think there are some phasing issues being introduced by my placement? Where can you hear it? I guess the way to dissect my sound would be to let you hear just the OH's and then the kik mic(s), and then the snare, etc.....

IMO the 'larger than life' drum sound on many records is from compression prior to tape or computers. Getting a hotter sound out of the pre and taming it a bit....that and mics and placement and everything else.