Is Analog Summing Important If Sending For Mastering Anyway?

B

BigEZ

The Devil Has Blue Eyes
Hi All,

I've seen a lot of talk about analog summing and am considering purchasing a D-Box. Is analog summing really important even when I will be sending my project off to be mastered? Apparently they have a ton of outboard analog gear which they use when mastering...will this not give the project that open, punchy, smooth analog sound or is it better to sum it first at home before mastering?

Thanks,
 
It's preference.
Unless you're sending stems for mastering though, it does matter.

If you're sending a stereo sum of your mix for mastering, then your summing method can be thought about like any other effect; The mastering engineer can't undo it.
I suppose in theory, digital summing should be lossless. It should be a perfect representation of your mix.
In that sense you can leave the choice of analog processing to the mastering engineer, but he'll never be able to re-sum your stereo mix.
Know what I mean?

Analog processing gear will give your mix whatever sound the MA wants it to give, within limits. I wouldn't assume that the act of analog processing will make a mix smooth or whatever.

Basically, it's up to you. If you want to sum using analog, go for it. It's certainly not essential, but some do it.
If you go with analog summing, the real choice is whether you do it, or you send stems for the MA to do it.
 
Ah, ok.
Usually (I guess), people send a stereo bounce of their track for mastering.
Sometimes they send stems, which would be a collection of stereo wavs.
They might be Percussion, Rhythm, Vocals, and one for the rest of the track (backing, leads guitars, etc)

I think it's important where several different masters are required. Maybe a radio mix needs to be vox heavy, but the club mix needs mental bass?

In analog summing, you can send every single channel to a desk or summing mixer, or you can send stems instead.
Say you had a 16 channel summing mixer, and 24 tracks of audio, you could do a stem for the kit and one for guitars to save space.
 
I own a folcrom and use it but I sometimes prefer to stay ITB. IMO the differences are very subtle. I a/b mixes for clients and sometimes
they prefer ITB and then other times they prefer the folcrom. I really dont think they are a necessity. This is all under the assumption you have high-end converters like prisms or weiss or at the very least benchmarks(I own these). If you dont have high-end converters then dont even worry about it. Dont get ahead of yourself with all the possibilities when mixing. Their are pros who stay ITB. The engineer matters so much more then the gear. This is something a lot of young engineers don't seem to grasp for a long tim. If you gave Tom lord- alge a song to mix in logic using stock plug-ins he could make it sound much better then an amateur mixing on a Neve console and all the analog gear in the world.

Im not trying to be a jerk but if you don't know what stems are you shouldn't be worried about analog summing. Analog summing almost always requires you to make stems. (my folcrom has 8 channels). Work on the basics first and im not even talking eq and compression.
Im talking about balance and phase. Getting balance and phase correct will enable you create a fantastic mix with a lot fewer plug-ins.
 
I use a DBox and like it. It's a great monitoring system and the summing is a plus

I don't believe that sending 8 channels to a summing unit makes a large difference on it's own. I use summing to integrate other hardware into my mix without having to deal with latency, round tripping and printing multiple effects during the mix process and in that area, analog summing really shines.

Unless you are using a heavily colored summing unit, OTB summing won't make a large difference by itself, maybe a slightly wider sense of stereo space from the crosstalk

If you have other hardware you want to integrate into a mix, and you need a good monitoring system with good DA converters, the DBox is fantastic

If all you want is some analogness on your mix, a dbox probably won't do a lot for you by itself. The unit has very high headroom and low cross talk and is pretty clean sounding, you'd probably get a more noticeable result just taking your stereo mix and running it through an external 2 channel preamp that is known to add color if that is all you are after..

That said I do love my DBox
 
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For me, analog summing was a fix to a former problem. When I was mixing ITB, I noticed that the stereo mix did not sound the same as the multitrack playback sounded prior to summing. The digital summing process somehow changed it, making it slightly more harsh, blurred, or rough around the edges so-to-speak. Perhaps it depends on which DAW software you use. I don't know.

The difference is subtle, but I am happier now. Every little improvement helps.
 
RokZtaR said:
Hi All,

I've seen a lot of talk about analog summing and am considering purchasing a D-Box. Is analog summing really important even when I will be sending my project off to be mastered? Apparently they have a ton of outboard analog gear which they use when mastering...will this not give the project that open, punchy, smooth analog sound or is it better to sum it first at home before mastering?

Thanks,
Click to expand...

When you refer to "summing" do you mean having everything mixed to stereo??
 
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RawDepth said:
For me, analog summing was a fix to a former problem. When I was mixing ITB, I noticed that the stereo mix did not sound the same as the multitrack playback sounded prior to summing. The digital summing process somehow changed it, making it slightly more harsh, blurred, or rough around the edges so-to-speak. Perhaps it depends on which DAW software you use. I don't know.

The difference is subtle, but I am happier now. Every little improvement helps.
Click to expand...

Seriously does "ITB" mean recording in the bedroom ???:facepalm:
 
Summing has nothing to do with mastering. 100% Digital mixes have to go off to get mastered all songs do. Summing is in the mixing phase not mastering phase. You would be asking if analog summing would be better for your mixing workflow and sound quality not mastering. If you didn't have an analog summing device and stuck with just digital your music would still have to get mastered and it would without the summing device.

Dont buy a D-Box if you think its gonna help your mastering, it doesn't even apply get a D-Box if you feel it will be better for mixing.
 
Wait a minute lol, Is TASCAM MAN being funny or are these serious legitimate questions? Cuz he is killing me! with this sarcasm lol
 
jaynm26 said:
Wait a minute lol, Is TASCAM MAN being funny or are these serious legitimate questions? Cuz he is killing me! with this sarcasm lol
Click to expand...

Seriously (again) I really dont know what ITB means ?!?!? In the bedroom recording.... Im really guessing ???:yawn:
 
Umm...I hope your not pulling my leg lol and getting a kick out of this if you are (I am on to you lol) ITB=In The Box or Digital
 
Summing, Tascam analog summing
Summing is the blending of audio signals (tracks) into a stereo mix. It is one of the final steps in the recording process, usually coming immediately before mastering (unless the engineer is summing groups of tracks, such as drums, separately). Commonly performed ITB (Inside The Box, meaning digitally) in modern digital audio workstations, OTB (Outside The Box, or on an analog mixer) summing is said to provide a slightly 'bigger', and more professional sound, although this is the source of much debate in the pro audio world.

Read more: What is summing

Analog summing
Dangerous Music 2-Bus: How it Works and How to Use It - YouTube

Pure Wave Audio Tech Talk - Analog Summing - Jim Pavett - YouTube
 
jaynm26 said:
Summing, Tascam analog summing
Summing is the blending of audio signals (tracks) into a stereo mix. It is one of the final steps in the recording process, usually coming immediately before mastering (unless the engineer is summing groups of tracks, such as drums, separately). Commonly performed ITB (Inside The Box, meaning digitally) in modern digital audio workstations, OTB (Outside The Box, or on an analog mixer) summing is said to provide a slightly 'bigger', and more professional sound, although this is the source of much debate in the pro audio world.

Read more: What is summing

Analog summing
Dangerous Music 2-Bus: How it Works and How to Use It - YouTube

Pure Wave Audio Tech Talk - Analog Summing - Jim Pavett - YouTube
Click to expand...

I really appreciate this and NO I was not kidding!! :eek:
 
jaynm26 said:
Summing, Tascam analog summing
Summing is the blending of audio signals (tracks) into a stereo mix. It is one of the final steps in the recording process, usually coming immediately before mastering (unless the engineer is summing groups of tracks, such as drums, separately). Commonly performed ITB (Inside The Box, meaning digitally) in modern digital audio workstations, OTB (Outside The Box, or on an analog mixer) summing is said to provide a slightly 'bigger', and more professional sound, although this is the source of much debate in the pro audio world.

Read more: What is summing

Analog summing
Dangerous Music 2-Bus: How it Works and How to Use It - YouTube

Pure Wave Audio Tech Talk - Analog Summing - Jim Pavett - YouTube
Click to expand...

Ok so all it is is what we always termed as "grouping" are "bussing" instruments together like say on a 24X8X2 mixer....correct? Like grouping,bussing are summing 6 mics. on drums to one are 2 tracks right? So the sub faders "sum" the instruments down to less tracks correct??
 
TASCAM MAN said:
Ok so all it is is what we always termed as "grouping" are "bussing" instruments together like say on a 24X8X2 mixer....correct? Like grouping,bussing are summing 6 mics. on drums to one are 2 tracks right? So the sub faders "sum" the instruments down to less tracks correct??
Click to expand...

Correct! However, with analog summing, each track from the DAW is sent outside the computer through its own Digital-to-Analog (D/A) converter. So, in order to sum 16 tracks outside of the computer, you must have a 16 channel D/A converter box. These 16 analog channels then physically plug into the summing amp where they get mixed together (with panning capabilities) into a two track output. The two separate tracks (L & R) then get routed back to the computer DAW to be recorded as the final mix.

I use the TLAudio Ebony A4, which has 16 inputs and 2 outputs. Summing amps are generally preferred over conventional mixers because they have a shorter signal path and thus, less electronic components to taint the sound quality. A shorter signal path = cleaner results. EQing, level settings, and effects can still be done ITB prior to summing.
 
RawDepth said:
Correct! However, with analog summing, each track from the DAW is sent outside the computer through its own Digital-to-Analog (D/A) converter. So, in order to sum 16 tracks outside of the computer, you must have a 16 channel D/A converter box. These 16 analog channels then physically plug into the summing amp where they get mixed together (with panning capabilities) into a two track output. The two separate tracks (L & R) then get routed back to the computer DAW to be recorded as the final mix.

I use the TLAudio Ebony A4, which has 16 inputs and 2 outputs. Summing amps are generally preferred over conventional mixers because they have a shorter signal path and thus, less electronic components to taint the sound quality. A shorter signal path = cleaner results. EQing, level settings, and effects can still be done ITB prior to summing.
Click to expand...

Exactly what Raw Depth said.
 
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