Irish sounding midifiles

  • Thread starter Thread starter peter miller
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Originally posted by AlChuck
Because how do you play a sampler? You send it MIDI messages.

Not if it has a keyboard. :)

Just like you would play any other MIDI sound source (most of which, these days, are all sample-based anyway, excepting those that are products of the recent fad for true analog synths).

Look, a midifile is a file containing Midi messages. A sound file is a file containing a sound, in some type of format, for example WAV. These are NOT the same things. Its different and separate things. You can use the midifile without the sample, and you can use the sample without the midifile. Yes you CAN use the midifile WITH the sample, but that doesn't make a midifile and a sample into one and the same.

An irish sounding midi file would contain for example and irish folk song. A midi file does not contain any sounds. This is a plain and simple fact.

Do you understand?
 
C'mon, regebro, do you think I'm a a moron? Of course a MIDI file is not the same as a digital audio file and of course it contains no audio data.

My point is only that your statement that MIDI and digital audio "are totally different and have absolutely nothing to do with each other" is confusing and untrue. To have something to do with each other does not require them to be the same as each other.

It's a little like telling someone that water and faucets have nothing to do with one another because the faucet's made of metal and contains no water. Or, if I ask you to sing a song and you comply, does that mean what I tell you has to have the sounds you are singing within it?

What the guy who started this thread was looking for are Irish instrument sound files to play from a sampler. MIDI is the means for communicating between the hardware (keyboard and computer) and the sampler's engine.

How do you think a sampler's built-in keyboard communicates with its sound-making hardware? It sends MIDI messages to it. It sends MIDI messages whether it has to send them out a jack to a cable and into an external box, or just a few inches away in its own housing.

By the way, try to play a Sound Font without using a MIDI instrument. Oh, yeah, you could open it in Vienna or another Sound Font making/editing tool, and hear it from there. But it's not a WAV file. You couldn't insert one as a sound event into a Cakewalk file, for example, and expect it to play. A Sound Font is a package of typically a bunch of WAV files, plus a lot of info that allows the Sound Font MIDI synth engine to know which sound to play when it receives a Note On. That's a MIDI message. The MIDI message is not a sound, it's an instruction about which sound to play.

To borrow your closing comment, do you understand?

-AlChuck
 
Originally posted by AlChuck
C'mon, regebro, do you think I'm a a moron? Of course a MIDI file is not the same as a digital audio file and of course it contains no audio data.

Excellent. Now, next step: Do a sample contain MIDI information? Yes or no?

How do you think a sampler's built-in keyboard communicates with its sound-making hardware? It sends MIDI messages to it.

That may be true for some keyboards, but is false for most of them.

To borrow your closing comment, do you understand?

Much better that you could even imagine.
 
Now, next step: Do a sample contain MIDI information? Yes or no?
Click to expand...
No, of course it doesn't.

But a sound set loaded into a sampler in an Akai format or Sound Font format or whatever certainly is tied to MIDI information. How else would the right note get played when you hit a particular key? The sample itself, the waveform, is the raw material of the sound set (well, actually, there's usually many individual samples), but the rest of the stuff gets stored in the file too. Not in a WAV file, in the Sound Font or whatever file. Just like a Word document can contain an embedded graphics file or even a whole bunch of them. The sampler bank or patch or whatever is built from samples; it is not itself a sample -- just like a Word document with pictures in it is not itself a picture.

That (a keyboard communicating with its own internal sound-playing components via MIDI messages) may be true for some keyboards, but is false for most of them.
Click to expand...

Well, I'm pretty sure that just is not correct, and probably hasn't been for the last fifteen years or more.

The "brain" of any modern sampler is engineered to be triggered by MIDI messages from external devices if the user chooses, right?

And the keyboard electronics are engineered to send out MIDI messages corresponding to which note was hit, how fast it was struck, whether it was pressed with aftertouch before it was released, and so on, correct?

Now, would it make any sense to come up with two completely separate ways for each of these components to communicate with the other, one adhering to the MIDI standard, and another proprietary one that the synth/sampler maker would have to engineer for themselves?

I think that any sensible manufacturer would leverage the MIDI stuff, which by market forces they must implement to reasonably expect that there will be a market for this instrument (would anyone these days buy a synth or sampler that had its own proprietary control scheme?) Wouldn't they? I mean, maybe I'm wrong about that... (any current or former Roland or Korg or Emu instrument engineers lurking around out there that can enlighten us?)

I'll leave the comment about the limits of my imagination alone...
 
OK- enough of this Blarney!
To add some "Irish" attitude to a MIDI tune, how about mixing down to reel?

{ Ouch, but you deserved that one... :) }
 
Peter, if you're still out there, what are you using for gear/programs in effort to utilize soundfonts, etc....? Other than that, My Irish ass is stayin' the McF#^k out of this! Slante, Tom.
 
Originally posted by AlChuck
No, of course it doesn't.

Good. Can a sample be played without MIDI?
 
If by "a sample" you mean a digital audio file, sure... but if you mean one of the sound elements stuffed into the EPROM of a wavetable synth, the answer would be not very easily unless you're an electronics engineer...
 
By "sample" I mean a sampled sound. So the answer is yes.

Lets repeat:
Is samples dependant on MIDI? Correct answer: No.
Does a "midi file" have sounds? No. Does a sample have midi? No.

Summary: No, no and no.

Is there anything that is unclear at this point?
 
By "sample" I mean a sampled sound.
Click to expand...
Well, that's a remarkably helpful clarification. (Ah, shit, excuse me, there I go again... I'm trying not to respond to your tone with a similar one...)

"Sampled sounds" can exist in many forms. Sampled onto the chip of a Casio SK-1... Sampled into Sound Forge on a PC...

You seem to be completely bypass the point of what I'm saying.

MIDI files do not contain sound. True.
Samples do not contain MIDI. True.
MIDI messages tell synths, drum machines, samplers. etc. what notes to play, how loud to play them, how long to play them, and so forth. True.
Sampled sounds stored in a sampler are played via MIDI commands. True.
Sound Fonts are soundsets created from one or more samples. packaged up with performance information that, when loaded into a Sound Font player, respond to MIDI messages in the appropriate manner. That is, they are a sound or set of sounds for a MIDI instrument. True.

Conclusion: MIDI files are not digital audio files; samples are not MIDI files; but they have very much to do with each other. They are related; one is used to manipulate the other.

What is so mysterious or odd about this point that brings out the withering tone in your replies? Could it be you interpreted my intial comments as being snotty? If so, I apologize. I was honestly puzzled how you could say that MIDI and digital audio have absolutley nothing to do with one another.

At any rate this seems to have deteriorated into a odd pissing contest about the precise shade of meaning of certain words that we both obviously understand thoroughly, and it serves no useful purpose except amusing everyone else or making them shake their head in wonder. So I'm stopping, I've said all I have to say on the matter.
 
Originally posted by AlChuck
Well, that's a remarkably helpful clarification. (Ah, shit, excuse me, there I go again... I'm trying not to respond to your tone with a similar one...)

"Sampled sounds" can exist in many forms. Sampled onto the chip of a Casio SK-1... Sampled into Sound Forge on a PC...

My point exactly.

You seem to be completely bypass the point of what I'm saying.

Yes, you probably have to be clearer as to what you are saying in that case. I'm saying that a MIDI does not contain sounds ans samples does not contain MIDI and that these two are separate things, that can be used without each other. YES, they can be used togetehr, but I can use my rechargable driller to bash your head in too, and that doesn't mean that drills and heads are interconnected in any way.

Now, if you want to continue claiming this is wrong, fine, do that. I have discovered the ignore list functionality, so I'm happy anyway! :)
 
TIME-OUT!

Hey guys, The whole point was that Peter was looking for sounds (Irish instruments) to utilize in some of his work in his studio set-up, whether he was going to point & click his composition utilizing a computer-based sequencing program, or, play them in real-time utilizing a controller such as a keyboard with MIDI out (and possibly a sound module), or a drive to load the soundfiles directly into the unit, then play in real time as an digital/analog type recording. That's all, I think. No big deal. At this point, he probably doesn't even care what the hell any of this stuff is, rather simply, where can he get something to sound like the sounds he's looking for so he can get on with his work. I don't even think he's reading this thread anymore, so, somewhere up there in the previous threads, his question was answered, and he's plugging away at his project as we speak. Reg & Al, you're both right, no question, the only difference is depending on how the question was interpereted, one of you is more right than the other, and Vise-Versa! All good points BTW. Peace Tom.
 
I have been reading the post when a reply comes but not always answering. I've been searching the net for some sounds but no flippin' luck:cool: :eek:
 
Peter, try these..... some are spendy!! If you get any, let us know how you like them. (ps as stated, one option, not necessarily one I am good at, is to tweak some standard files... you could probably do an Irish harp and whistle, uliean and bag pipes will be harder)

http://www.bigfishaudio.com/cgi/SoftCart.exe/scstore/cein1.html?L+scstore+vwvd0048+989898957

Here is another source that is a bit cheaper.... these are the ones that (I have read) are more like mini tunes that single instruments, but I have not heard them...

http://www.soundsonline.com/


(go here and search for celtic)
 
Hey Peter, Just a thought. I don't know where you're from, but there are Irish musicians all over. Many play traditional instruments and are involved in one way or another in recording their stuff. Any way you can seek out any of the local talent, buy 'em a couple o' pints, and get them to make digital samples of their instruments? Shit, if you have the ger to do it, offer to record a session of theirs and grab the wave files or samples ot of the mix. I realize the files may end up being rather large because as well as just getting a Middle C to mess around with, you'll also want some of the instrument's different attack / release / trill styles (thinking of the pipes), and different hits and rimshots on the bohdran. Once you have an aray of samples, you can piece them together to get (close) to what you're looking for. I used to play Irish music, and still have a lot of friends around Boston who are still active in that circuit and utilize all (and more) of the instruments you seek, many of which have nice studio set-ups capable of making nice samples. I can try to get in touch with them to see if they would be willing to help, or possibly, already have what you're looking for. It may take a while (months probably to track them down and get free time that meets our schedules), so don't hold your breath, but I will look into it.
 
Peter,

I use Cool Edit and ACID... Cool Edit will let you edit some sounds ACID will let you build loop-based compositions... but if you want to build a Sound Font set you'll need something else. Vienna Studio is the tool I'm most aware of, it comes with the Sound Blaster and is freely downloadable from most Sound Font-oriented websites. If you have no experience with programming synth or sampler sounds, the learning curve is bound to be a bit steep at first. But there's lots of decent tutorials out there on the web.

-AlChuck
 
I had an old version of AWAVE and upgraded to AWAVE studio when I decided to give soundfonts a try. It has a pretty sweet program when it comes to editing the fonts and it converts a number of formats into the SF or SF2 spec. It may seem a little spendy, but AWAVE has always been bulletproof for me. Check out the demo http://www.fmjsoft.com/mo!
 
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