intonation

  • Thread starter Thread starter FALKEN
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FALKEN

FALKEN

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ok, ran into an issue. say that the guitar is intonated properly at the 12th fret. the open string, or 12th fret harmonic, is perfectly in tune with a fretted note at the 12th fret. the problem is that from frets 1-11 the notes are fretting sharp and from 13-up it is fretting flat. Any way to fix this? It is a fender strat.
 
that's just the way it goes i think.

is it really off enough to annoy you?

you really can't tune a guitar...you can only make it out of tune enough to make it sound good in all keys.

just tune with octaves all over the guitar neck, and the out of tune-ness is negligible. it's called tempering the guitar.
 
yeah, its pretty off at the 3rd-10th frets, enough to ruin the recordings I think. With the action higher it gets better but not perfect and less playable. Also with the action lower closer to factory specs there is a good amount of fret buzz. I suspect that loostening the truss rod might help a bit but it is already bowed a slight bit to where it should be I think. The only thing I can think of is that perhaps the nut could come down a bit, which would improve the action and also the intonation a bit too. only the nut height looks like its already at .01". so I don't get it? thats why I posted here....
 
It might be time to have a professional look at it. It could be just the normal out-of-tune-ness, it could be neck angle or alignment or bow. Could be the nut, etc...
 
Falken -

There's a certain order that you need to follow to make sure that you don't go around in circles with the setup.

First, with the strings at proper tuning, adjust the neck bow with the truss rod.
Then, set the string height. (Followed by pickup height.)
Then, set the intonation.

There will always be a compromise with intonation, but all you can do is get it as close as you can get it.
 
yeah. this sounds a bit more than the norm.

sounds like you have a bendy neck.
 
Freddy said:
... and it everything else is OK (neck etc) and it still bugs you, go for a compensated nut?

http://www.mimf.com/nutcomp/
Click to expand...


Freddy beat me to it, but he is absolutely right you should consider a compensated nut there are a couple of off the shelf models just do a search.
I played a beautiful custom made Les Paul with this type of a nut it was a joy to play in perfect tune all the way down the neck. The I played was an earvana, they are completely unobtrusive your forget it is even there.

What model strat is it? What pickups do you have? Some pickups have such a strong magnetic pull they can draw a guitar out of tune. I had some texas specials that did this. Is your tremelo adjusted properly. I think I would block it then you can atleast take string and spring tension out of the equation.

if you have huge jumbo frets that could account for notes being sharp if your pressing the string down all the way to the fret board. I guess the temp fix would be to tune a little on the flat side, flat notes don't stand out as bad as sharp ones. Does every string have the same characteristic as far as being sharp and flat? Is this a used or home built strat by any chance?
 
I'm a bit tired this evening so haven't got the energy to respond fully. You might want to read this as a starting point then ask some specific questions. Forget the wrap around thing it applies to all stringed instruments tuned in equal temprement. The general gist is that intonation today is never right and once you have that understood you can find a way to get your set up right. Once you've tackled both those points your good to go.

I would suggest you need to look at your neck relief, then the nut, saddle and strings.
 
ok I get that equal temperment is a compromise, but shouldn't each note on the fretboard register 'in tune' on a tuner? shouldn't my "A" on the 6th string be identical to an open "A" on the 5th string?
 
FALKEN said:
ok I get that equal temperment is a compromise, but shouldn't each note on the fretboard register 'in tune' on a tuner? shouldn't my "A" on the 6th string be identical to an open "A" on the 5th string?
Click to expand...
You can tune your A on the 6th to be = to the A on th 5th or 4th. That will mean that the E or C (or ant other note for that matter) on the same stings or on other strings in different positions for example MAY NOT be in tune with your tuner, or with other notes of equal value.

The whole thing is a compromise. More so than most people appreciate. Having said that you should be able to tune your guitar to a more than acceptable degree. If you cant there is something wrong with your setup.
 
strange...

ok; when I intonate my 5th string to be "correct" at the 12th fret, the 3rd fret is sharp about 10 "cents", whatever a "cent" is. I guess 10 cents = a dime? is this bad?
 
FALKEN said:
ok I get that equal temperment is a compromise, but shouldn't each note on the fretboard register 'in tune' on a tuner? shouldn't my "A" on the 6th string be identical to an open "A" on the 5th string?
Click to expand...
Sorry, like I said I'm tired, but in answer to your question, yes you should be able to get the notes up and down the neck in tune with your tuner. At least close so as makes no noticable difference. That is part of a good setup on a good instrument. How you do that is another story.
 
FALKEN said:
strange...

ok; when I intonate my 5th string to be "correct" at the 12th fret, the 3rd fret is sharp about 10 "cents", whatever a "cent" is. I guess 10 cents = a dime? is this bad?
Click to expand...

1 cent is 1/100 of a semitone. 10 cents is rather a lot to be off pitch . . .
 
FALKEN said:
strange...

ok; when I intonate my 5th string to be "correct" at the 12th fret, the 3rd fret is sharp about 10 "cents", whatever a "cent" is. I guess 10 cents = a dime? is this bad?
Click to expand...
There are a few measures used to describe differences in pitch. Cents is one. I'm not trying to be obtuse but read this and when I'm more alive in the morning I'll try and answer your specific question in relation to the guitar ;) I'm off to bed
 
This may be a dumb question, but...how old are your strings? And are they good quality? Old strings can be off no matter how you adjust them. I get a lot of people who complain of bad intonation and even string buzz and all they really need is a new set put on.
 
If you do adjust your truss, be sure to it does have some torque on it, I've seen where guys will loosen it too much, not giving the neck enough rigidity, so every time you you push on a chord, it affects the neck more than it should, resulting in certain strings/notes sounding out of tune, even if the intonation is set "perfectly".
 
FALKEN said:
ok, ran into an issue. say that the guitar is intonated properly at the 12th fret. the open string, or 12th fret harmonic, is perfectly in tune with a fretted note at the 12th fret. the problem is that from frets 1-11 the notes are fretting sharp and from 13-up it is fretting flat. Any way to fix this? It is a fender strat.
Click to expand...
This is certainly an interest finding.
If your action were too high, it would cause just the opposite effect - that's why bridges are adjustable, to compensate for the higher pitch introduced by the extra tension of pulling the string to the fret.
As far as I know, your action can't be too low, at least as regards intonation.

So your guitar has the equivalent of the scale length being too short below the 12th fret (notes playing sharp), and too long above the 12th fret (notes playing flat.) Obviously, you have to move the 12th fret toward the bridge. :D

But seriously, is the 12th fret harmonic directly above the 12th fret, or at least very, very close (within a mm or 2 toward the bridge side)?
 
crazydoc said:
This is certainly an interest finding.
If your action were too high, it would cause just the opposite effect - that's why bridges are adjustable, to compensate for the higher pitch introduced by the extra tension of pulling the string to the fret.
As far as I know, your action can't be too low, at least as regards intonation.

So your guitar has the equivalent of the scale length being too short below the 12th fret (notes playing sharp), and too long above the 12th fret (notes playing flat.) Obviously, you have to move the 12th fret toward the bridge. :D

But seriously, is the 12th fret harmonic directly above the 12th fret, or at least very, very close (within a mm or 2 toward the bridge side)?
Click to expand...
Other way round mate. If the action is too high you introduce to much tension when fretting and the note plays sharp as described. The fix would be to lower action thus introducing less tension when fretting causing the note to play less sharp, or move the saddle back increasing the string length.
 
muttley600 said:
Other way round mate. If the action is too high you introduce to much tension when fretting and the note plays sharp as described. The fix would be to lower action thus introducing less tension when fretting causing the note to play less sharp, or move the saddle back increasing the string length.
Click to expand...
His action has already ostensibly been compensated, if the 12th fret note and harmonic are true. If anything, this would cause the notes below the 12th fret to play a little flat, not sharp (assuming the action gets higher progressing from the nut to the bridge), which is the opposite of the problem as he states it.
 
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