intonation on a les paul goddess

  • Thread starter Thread starter Nicole_Rose
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Muttley, I've never questioned that the intonation could be correct with a non-adjustable bridge, assuming that you use strings of the ratios for which the bridge was designed. It's when you get into custom gauge sets that you could have a problem, correct?
 
Zaphod B said:
Muttley, I've never questioned that the intonation could be correct with a non-adjustable bridge, assuming that you use strings of the ratios for which the bridge was designed. It's when you get into custom gauge sets that you could have a problem, correct?
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Why didn't yu believe me when I said that? :D
 
TelePaul said:
Is this 'Ask Muttley' hour?

Muttley, I have this rash on my....oh wait...nevermind.
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"Hide glue is best for this kind of crack."
 
faderbug said:
oh, ok i didn't realise it was called that way.

is that what bach was referring to in 'the well tempered clavier'?
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Yes, exactly that. He was demonstrating how you could compose for and play an instrument in many keys and with different intervals by tuning, or more correctly, tempering the notes in the scale. He wasn't the first to realise this or demonstrate its use but because of his renown it became widely appreciated.
 
32-20-Blues said:
Btw, Muttley, can you clear something up for me: ET is a compromise, I get that; I have done some reading on ratios versus the 12 tone system, and understand the changes made to reconcile the two.

However: Beyond that, is the fretting of a guitar a compromise also? I mean, a compromise beyond ET, in that fret position needs to be slightly adjusted to suit each string as best it can?
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Kind of, the methods used to determine fret positions divide the octave into 12 equal parts. In that sense it is equal temprement. In practice there are a couple of methods used. The 12th root of 2 and the rule of 18's. Sound like a maths lesson coming????? Well you don't need to worry about the maths as it results in much the same thing. For a good explanation of each and how it effects fret position try THIS LINK. Don't get bogged down or put off by the numbers it does explain quite well how it works. If you want to see for yourself how these calculations effect the fret positions have a play with Doug Sparlings fretcalc software. You can punch in a string length and calculation method and it will spit out some numbers for you. Find it HERE. You'll soon see how little difference there is whichever way you use.

The real compromise is 12ET but the guitar allows for another set of compromises or benefits whichever way you choose to look at it, because of the nature of the vibrating string and the relationship between its mass and stiffness and the tension in that string which effects the pitch. These have to be factored in.So all in all its a complex beast and a wonder any of us can play in tune, let alone make a guitar. :)
 
TelePaul said:
Is this 'Ask Muttley' hour?

Muttley, I have this rash on my....oh wait...nevermind.
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Zaphod B said:
"Hide glue is best for this kind of crack."
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Nah for rash like that were gonna have to sand it back and refinish.... :eek:
 
faderbug said:
oh, ok i didn't realise it was called that way.

is that what bach was referring to in 'the well tempered clavier'?
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muttley600 said:
Yes, exactly that. He was demonstrating how you could compose for and play an instrument in many keys and with different intervals by tuning, or more correctly, tempering the notes in the scale. He wasn't the first to realise this or demonstrate its use but because of his renown it became widely appreciated.
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Well, not quite. The system he was using is not the same as true equal temperament (which came about as a result of modern measurment techniques), but it is certainly the same basic idea. There have been many different temperament systems over the years, and equal temperament is actually relatively new, within the last 100 years or so, if I remember correctly (it's been a while since my music history class).

As to Nicole's original question, most modern one piece bridges have little allen screws right behind the posts to give you a bit of overall intonation adjustment. If you use a standard gauge set (i.e., mediums, lights, etc., but not "custom lights" or "thick top, heavy bottom"), once you get the two E strings right on, the others will usually be very close, but this all assumes that the bridge is in the right place to begin with, which is not always a safe assumption with a Gibson.


Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi
 
Light said:
Well, not quite. The system he was using is not the same as true equal temperament (which came about as a result of modern measurment techniques), but it is certainly the same basic idea. There have been many different temperament systems over the years, and equal temperament is actually relatively new, within the last 100 years or so, if I remember correctly (it's been a while since my music history class).

As to Nicole's original question, most modern one piece bridges have little allen screws right behind the posts to give you a bit of overall intonation adjustment. If you use a standard gauge set (i.e., mediums, lights, etc., but not "custom lights" or "thick top, heavy bottom"), once you get the two E strings right on, the others will usually be very close, but this all assumes that the bridge is in the right place to begin with, which is not always a safe assumption with a Gibson.


Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi
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True but...Although the system Bach used was not Equal Temprement he was fully aware of the concept. The idea had been around since the renaissance but had been dismissed as "unpure". He was tempering the common intervals to get a compromise. At the time true ET tuning systems were used on stringed instruments in an attempt to get all intervals to sound true. From memory one example was a 31 not ET system calculated and proposed by a a guy I think called Virgiliano (sp) or was it Vircentino, I'll have to go through my old Uni notes :confused: The system involved a division of the octave into 31 steps. The result was close to being able to play the correct intervals in many keys, I once fretted a viol in his fashion and it was surprisingly easy to play in tune. I have some notes buried somewhere which if I can find them and some recording on an old dat tape which I can't play anymore. I'll post the correct name and details.. So yes your correct, Bach didn't tune to 12ET but the idea of ET temprements was well understood. 12 note ET was still considered unsuitable at the time as it didn't give pure enough intervals.

There are allso some interesting examples of guitars with different fretting systems to play in various temprements. When I have a bit of time I'll start a thread with some links to them for anyone whose interested. Its all a bit away from the original thread topic now :o
 
I'm not suggesting that these have any value, in fact I think they are rubbish bet this link gives an example of how silly this whole issue can get if you let it. HERE Don't browse the site too much as a lot of the stuff they claim is bunk. Interesting tho
 
muttley600 said:
... The system involved a division of the octave into 31 steps. The result was close to being able to play the correct intervals in many keys, I once fretted a viol in his fashion and it was surprisingly easy to play in tune. ...
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question : how do you fit 31 frets on 6 inches?
 
That WAS interesting, Muttley, although that's the ugliest fretboard I've ever seen in my life. Do you remember Micro-fret? A nut designed by Rube Goldberg...
 
if all this was more then just theory ALL music played and recorded should sound off.

it doesn't.

btw i play fretless guitar (or at least i try to) and i can never believe the intonation is that different from string to string!!! i mean sure there is some difference but this looks like 1/4 '' !!
 
faderbug said:
question : how do you fit 31 frets on 6 inches?
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The Viol not a violin. The Viola da Gamba is an instrument that was popular in at the time the violin was in it's early developement. It was a consort instrument and used for a differing style of music. It has gut tied frets in much the same way a lute. The scale length on the one I fretted with 31 frets was around 23 inches or 550mm. True its a lot of frets but it wass still playable.

Here's a picture of one I made quite sometime ago that is very similar in style. Its based on a surviving instrument made about c1650. The modern double base with the flat back is a direct descendant of the Viola da Gamba. I'll try and dig out some pictures of the 31 fret example and scan and post a few. Might take a while my filing system isn't all it could be and I haven't seen them for a looooong time. ;)
 

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faderbug said:
if all this was more then just theory ALL music played and recorded should sound off.

it doesn't.

btw i play fretless guitar (or at least i try to) and i can never believe the intonation is that different from string to string!!! i mean sure there is some difference but this looks like 1/4 '' !!
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Modern music doesn't sound off to our ears because of the style and compositions we have come to accept. To the average musician in the 16th and 17th century our harmonic sense would have been unacceptable. If you take some time to listen to some choral music from that period or consort music you really can hear the difference between pure 5ths and the 5ths we use in musical composition today. Not wrong just different. Both systems have their appeal and drawbacks and are appropriate for the music that is composed for them.

In a way thats what I was getting at when I said some people come to me thinking they have intonation issues with a guitar, when in fact that are being very picky about the intervals. Their ears are expecting perfect fifths, fourths and thirds. 12ET can't do that. What it can do is a very good compromise.
 
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