Insulating Old from New - Are 'home-made' gaskets ok?

[ENIGMACODE]

Hello again studio dudes

I was conversing with Rod Gervais about the neccesity of keeping your new studio insulated from any old structures. We were discussing and exploring some of the devices especially designed for this purpose. For those experienced builders and owners of old homes, I'm sure you guys are aware of the various difficulties in trying to build a NEW studio within your OLD basement .....

Anyway, I was hoping to build this room completely free-standing but unfortunately that's not possible.

I have some photos of work in progress - but it's not too late to modify a few things before I start to build the rest of the walls and cieling.

You'll see how I had to use the existing structure to strengthen a wall.

I choose to install #2 make-shift braces to help strengthen and plum this particular wall.

What do I need to know?

Is it acceptable to use rubber, or carpeting as a gasket separating the NEW structure from the existing OLD structure in order to help isolate sound?

Can you guys take a gander at these photos, and give me your opinion?

Also note that I'm going to have to depend on the existing ceiling joists (in a few places), in the garage ceiling to help support the NEW drywall ceiling. And I was planning on using a similar make-shift brace system....

http://www.locationstudio.net/gasket-7.jpg < Overview-1
http://www.locationstudio.net/gasket-8.jpg < Overview-2
http://www.locationstudio.net/gasket-1.jpg < Gasket-1
http://www.locationstudio.net/gasket-3.jpg < Gasket-2

Best Regards
Michael Fraticelli
rocknroll@ucwphilly.rr.com

 

[Rod Gervais]

Is it acceptable to use rubber, or carpeting as a gasket separating the NEW structure from the existing OLD structure in order to help isolate sound?

Can you guys take a gander at these photos, and give me your opinion?

Also note that I'm going to have to depend on the existing ceiling joists (in a few places), in the garage ceiling to help support the NEW drywall ceiling. And I was planning on using a similar make-shift brace system....

Michael,

1st of all - forget the carpet...... it isn't going to work at all.

Also - the way you are going about this won't work with the rubber either.

In order for it to work you would have to sandwich the rubber between 2 members and connected to the wall - have a section of rubber that carries the load (with some obvious freedom to move) and then connect the other end of the rubber to the joist.

What you have detailed is going to take the connection and transfer the sound directly through the fasteners to the structure.

Once again - I know cost is an issue - but you have to get creative here to find anything that will work - and you have to keep in mind how the things that DO work make it happen.

For example - if you were to put pieces of that rubber along each face (outside) of the wall - frame above it within the bay - and then drop down framing that captured the wall outside of each face tighly enough that it would snug up the rubber - but then you would not have to nail through the rubber to lose the isolation - THAT WOULD WORK.......

OR - if you were to take the top of the wall - wrap it with rubber - and then slip it up into a deep track (with 1/2" thick rubber - and your 2x6 framing - a slip track for 8" steel studs would work perfectly if you shimmed the outside face with 1/2" plywood) - just make sure your wall is sitting roughly 1/2" below the top of the track......... you attach the track directly to your existing framing and slip the wall into it - letting the rubber create the isolation - no direct connection between the 2......THAT TOO WOULD WORK.

The wall then can not move laterally into the room - and the wall can be braced in it's length to make it rigid. Some simple diagonal blocking for that.

Just do not couple it directly to the existing frame...... if you do that it becomes a rigid frame - and has no acoustical isolation value.

Can you see the picture?

That deals easily with walls........ the ceiling is a different issue - if that's how you have to do it - if your budget doesn't allow the isolation hangers I showed you before - OR the use of RC - then forget it - because the home made hangers will be bad enough so as to make framing a seperate ceiling useless - and then you are just throwing your money away for the framing.

If you can't decouple it - then just use the mass and live with it.

As to the other question you asked me on the original post - 5/8" is better than 1/2 - especially if you are only putting up one layer....... but again - don't expect much isolation with just that. You'll be lucky if you get any better than 36 or 37db of reduction even if you completely isolate the frame.

Rod

 

[ENIGMACODE]

I think I see the problem

Rod ..

If I were to simplify your explanation - would you say that once you've pierced through the rubber, and into the existing structure with a screw, you've lost it .... that's basically where you've re-established the sound transmittal - the transmittal that you were trying to avoid all along....

Correct? If so, as you pointed out, the idea is to devise something that does NOT require a direct fastening (by a screw), to the existing structure through the gasket - true?

And in regard to the isolation hangers, as I mentioned they are quite reasonably priced - BUT I don't see how I can use them because there probably isn't enough head room - can you see that from the photos?
And they will only allow the cieling to 'HANG' straight down. So there isn't a way to rigidly seek support from above for the purpose of straightening something out ..

Back to the drawing board.....

Best Regards
Michael Fraticelli
rocknroll@ucwphilly.rr.com

 

[RICK FITZPATRICK]

Hello Michael, this may not be exactly right, but at least you can visuallize the concepts, and maybe I can illustrate each detail as Rod describes it. Of course, without seeing each and every wall connection, I'm only guessing at this point, but what the hell, I still like to draw. The rubber in this illustration is CONTACT CEMENTED to the beam, then captured with strips of ply, screwed to the NEW wall framing. Don't know if it meets code, but we'll try and try again till it does..ha!

fitZ

 

[RICK FITZPATRICK]

Here is a blow up of the detail.
fitZ

 

[RICK FITZPATRICK]

Sorry I didn't have time to lable everything. Its late, and time for bed. But the idea is to fasten 2x2 or 2x4 furring right over the existing ceiling, perpendicular to the existing joists.. YEA< I KNOW IT MAKES FOR MORE THAN ONE LEAF..... Whats the difference.....at least you get mass. Then fasten RC across the furring. Then 2 layers of gyp bd. Minimum space use. And RC is cheap....at least compared to the clips. John Sayers told me that even in one of the studios he built, the existing wall had exterior shiething, which made THREE LEAFS, as he lined the inside of the existing wall with gyp bd, and then built the studio walls with one leaf. As long as the 3rd leaf has air leaks, or vents, then its ok. You existing floor above no doubt has air leaks, so what the hell, it'll be better than what you have. Post some pics of your other connection points, and tell us about the double wall at the garage door, post some pics, and I'll try to detail it. But you probably need to post some precise dimensions, but we'll talk about it later. Rod, not trying to poke my nose in here, just trying to use what I DO know how to do to help. Tell me whats wrong with this and I'll fix it. Not doubt it doesn't EXACTLY match the real conditions, but this was just a primer. Once I have good dimensions, I can draw it correctly. Or just tell me, and I'll butt out.

fitZ

 

[ENIGMACODE]

Rick and others - Please read my question

Rick
Can't thank you enough for the time you took in drawing up those diagrams!
I will study them and come up with something.....

If you guys can basically agree with my statement below, I can take other approaches, just so that I know I'm going in the right direction. I can come up some other make-shift braces that won't penetrate the existing structure with screws. All of this modification has to be improvised on the fly, due to what I'm up against (as you can see).

Sooo then Does this statement below bear any truth?

"If I were to simplify your explanation - would you say that once you've pierced through the rubber, and into the existing structure with a screw, you've lost it .... that's basically where you've re-established the sound transmittal - the transmittal that you were trying to avoid all along....
Correct????? If so, as you pointed out, the idea is to devise something that does NOT require a direct fastening (by a screw, or other means), that penetrates to the existing structure through the gasket - true?"

http://www.locationstudio.net/gasket-1.jpg < THIS IS A 'NO-GO'

Best Regards
Michael Fraticelli
rocknroll@ucwphilly.rr.com

 

[Rod Gervais]

"If I were to simplify your explanation - would you say that once you've pierced through the rubber, and into the existing structure with a screw, you've lost it .... that's basically where you've re-established the sound transmittal - the transmittal that you were trying to avoid all along....

YES........... by jove I think he's got it !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

If so, as you pointed out, the idea is to devise something that does NOT require a direct fastening (by a screw, or other means), that penetrates to the existing structure through the gasket - true?"

YES................... you are certainly on the right track now.......

http://www.locationstudio.net/gasket-1.jpg < THIS IS A 'NO-GO'

THAT IS A BIG NO NO.......... and as i mentioned above - carpet is a waste - stick with rubber for your final fix.

HEY fitZ.........

Rod, not trying to poke my nose in here, just trying to use what I DO know how to do to help. Tell me whats wrong with this and I'll fix it.

Sir - we're all here for the same reason - and helping someone to understand is nothing to apologize for. By the way - i like your detail - that would work just fine....... there are some other simple solutions as well. As many as one's imagination can muster in fact.

I'll try to get a pic up in a bit......

Rod

 

[frederic]

The way to achieve near-perfect isolation is to build a room inside the room.

Float the floor on rubber posts, pucks, stubs, or auralex's u-boats, neoprene, stuff like that.

You can do the same to the walls, floating them, and the ceiling you can use resiliant channel as Rick and others have described.

If you're after perfection, you can get very close this way.

Me, I put a lot of thought into my studio, and changed mentality along the way. I realized for the recording that I'm going to be doing, and the purpose of my home studio, I decided that good enough is good enough. So, I simply framed out my studio in the garage loft, packed in good quality insulation, covered the room in neoprene, screwed 3/4" MDF to the studs and joists using deck screws, after applying structural adhesive to the joists and studs. Then on top of that I installed 5/8" greenboard (very dense sheetrock) using 1.25" sheet rock screws, making sure those screws do not line up with the joists or studs of the structure underneath. Then finally, on top of that, I screwed on 3/8" sheetrock also staggering the screws.

Its not perfect, but there really isn't much opportunity for standing waves. One wall has a slanted ceiiling, and opposite that is the flat vocal booth wall which is not at true vertical (on purpose), and on either side of the vocal booth is either open space, or a 40" wide section of ceiling slant. On the one side is a "sofa cove" for lack of a better term, and while that area is square, its also very open to the rest of the room, so because of all the odd architectural "features", I could probably get away with 703 scattered about covered in fabric and thats about it. If highs are a problem I have an attic full of acoustical foam, but I'm not anticipating high frequency problems.

Anyway, what others are recommending to you is full isolation. No problem, works well. I did the opposite. My studio is part of the house structure, so in theory sound can be transmitted through the structure to the rest of the house and vice versa.

However, my 1941 house is not constructed out of flimsy 2x4's, but rather the rafters in my house are 2x16's (and really 2"x16", not 1.75x15.75"), the walls are 2x8's as a minimum, and there is a steel "cage" the house was built on, which are essentially welded 6"x6" I-beams around the perimeter of the house as well as around the basement.

Dispite its age, the construction was done well enough originally that its one solid house, so sound transmission is rather minimal.

I was blasting music in this room last fall, closed it all up, and walked around the outside of the house as well as various rooms inside the house, and only outside by the lame original windows could I hear thump, thump, thump.

Now, if I open the garage door and walk inside, I can hear the music. But, I haven't insulated the floor yet nor have I put the new hardwood floor down yet, so even that will be drastically minimized.

Anyway, hope you enjoyed the lesson on how not to construct a studio

FOr me, my studio is for home projects, occasionally I'll record vocalists and stuff, my website really just enables tax writeoffs. This is MY project studio more than anything.

Eventually, once the rest of my life stabilizes, I will be building a commercial recording studio one town over, as I already have the building. Right now the building is a giant closet for car parts and junk And when it comes time to do up that space, I'll be hiring John Sayers to design the layout, having my local architect friend who owes me serious favors draw up the blueprints based on John's design, then drop a scary $250-300K to build the facility. And in that space, I won't be using MDF and deck screws for sure

I just have to get there first. Right now i'm distracted (project wise) building a twin-turbo big-block stroker motor for my Ford crewcab.

 

[Rod Gervais]

I don't know about the quality of this - but let's give it a try.

This is another way of dealing with it......








Rod

 

[ENIGMACODE]

Hey Rod, Rick, and Frederick! Thanx loads!

Can't thank you enough guys for your time, advice, and patience.

I know it takes a bit of patience to go over and over these elements of acoustical construction that come probably everyday to you guys ....

Ok well, today I spent the better part of the day changing over my exhausted electrical panel box to a new 30 circuit 100 amp panel. My main expertise is 'electrical.' Been in the field for over 28 years.

Anyway, now that I have ALL your contributions, I'll be going back to the design and implementation of the art of 'IMPROVISATION' ....

MAN - who would have known all this to consider in regard to building a good music room.

Soooo back we go to see how and where I can isolate those support braces .....

Gimme a few days - I'll be back!

Best Regards
Michael Fraticelli
rocknroll@ucwphilly.rr.com