Industry Standards?

[VesuviusJay]

Hey you all!

I just wondered if anyone was familiar with industry or airwave standards for audio masters. As far as standard specifications the material must compare to, etc. I am curious as to weather decible levels or compression rate standards are imposed.

Jay

 

[sjoko2]

Nope, there are no set standards, apart from the requirement that the material remains intact when passed through a broadcasting chain, which again, is not a set standard.
Unfortunately you've hit on the major problem of the "loudness wars".

 

[VesuviusJay]

Sweet! That is the answer I was looking for. I was affraid I would have to spend a fortune having it mastered so that it can get some airplay! Now I can just send what I have! Thanks dude!

 

[sjoko2]

Sweet! That is the answer I was looking for. I was affraid I would have to spend a fortune having it mastered so that it can get some airplay! Now I can just send what I have! Thanks dude!

Perhaps my answer was not complete enough. While there is no set standard, there are generally accepted rules (unfortunately, today) regarding sound quality and volume. If you product falls short of the "perceived standard" don't expect to get airplay.
Professional mastering is always worthwhile, and to have a single for airplay mastered does not cost a fortune.

 

[giles117]

In supplement to what Sjoko said (BTW I love your studio SJ),

I'd start listening to what is being played on the air for the genre or market you are after. Then... Go Buy their CD's and start studying the COLOR of the mix, The Volume of the MIX, and various other elements in the mix.

Most importantly being placement of things, levels, etc....

If you wanna know how to build a kite, you go to kite makers. If you wanna know if they will play what you have, ask, listen and compare.

No one said Be like the others, but their are certain unspoken technical rules that will apply.

Bryan Giles

 

[malcolm123]

eventhough I am in no way favorable to the " Loud Wars ", there is nothing worst than being in the Radio Station and when your song comes on, the DJ has to boost the volume of his console.

Most of the radio DJ I know hate that, and if they feel they need to tweak some EQ settings, they just wont do it.

Get it mastered man.

Malcolm

 

[pipelineaudio]

"eventhough I am in no way favorable to the " Loud Wars ", there is nothing worst than being in the Radio Station and when your song comes on, the DJ has to boost the volume of his console.
"

funny thing here. With sensibly mastered stuff, over the radio, it is actually LOUDER than the "volume wars mastering mafia "stuff. The choruses are actually louder than the verses, when an instrument comes in harder, it gets louder. With volume blasted dogg doo, the 2x4 shape keeps the broadast compressor and limiters tripped and running, and when all the instruments come in and get loud, like in a chorus, it actually gets quieter!

This situation is so screwed up

 

[sjoko2]

"eventhough I am in no way favorable to the " Loud Wars ", there is nothing worst than being in the Radio Station and when your song comes on, the DJ has to boost the volume of his console.
"

funny thing here. With sensibly mastered stuff, over the radio, it is actually LOUDER than the "volume wars mastering mafia "stuff. The choruses are actually louder than the verses, when an instrument comes in harder, it gets louder. With volume blasted dogg doo, the 2x4 shape keeps the broadast compressor and limiters tripped and running, and when all the instruments come in and get loud, like in a chorus, it actually gets quieter!

This situation is so screwed up

Yup, overcompress and when it comes to radio play -- they will put some "standard broadcast" compression on top of it -- and your mix is gone to hell.

 

[fenix]

Like said before there aren't really any radio standards, but most songs on the radio are mastered at an average db level of anywhere from -10db to -8db.

 

[sonicpaint]

-10db to -8db???!!!

I have to disagree on that one. Songs today are so over processed it's not even funny! With the loudness wars going on all the time along with mastering engineers being pressured into making mixes against the better judgements the "Mastered" songs your hearing on the radio will be lucky if they have an average to peak ratio of like 5db.

I do however agree that mixes that are more dynamic sound louder on the radio then the over processed, squashed masters that are coming out of a lot of mastering houses these days.

In order to understand why a dynamic song(lower in volume in most if not all cases if not in all) sounds louder on the radio, you need to understand what the differences are between a commercially released master and an unprocessed and very dynamic natural song is. A knowledge of what is being done to your song when it's broadcasted also helps. That's why in some cases you hear of some bands having a "radio version". In cases like this for the regular listener the differences are most likely none, but if you have that little bit of background on what I mentioned you'll know what the differences are.

lol. I kind of went on about this topic. It's one of those things where there is more to the story that a simple explanation.

Hope this helps in some way.
sonicpaint

 

[fenix]

Re: -10db to -8db???!!!

I have to disagree on that one. the "Mastered" songs your hearing on the radio will be lucky if they have an average to peak ratio of like 5db.

Oh? Here's a popular rock song on rock radio right now. Look at the blue meter. That is the average db level.

 

[fenix]

here's another one mixed by Chris Lord-Alge. If you know anything about Chris or Tom Lord-Alge, you know they are good at making radio compressed to hell mixes.

 

[giles117]

Another one, keep in mind that most stations compress their broadcasted signal with about 6db of compression.

SO your mastered to hell loud mix is then compressed another 6db on average at the station. Hope it sits well.

Bryan

 

[fenix]

most stations limit, not compress.

 

[sonicpaint]

Re: Re: -10db to -8db???!!!

Oh? Here's a popular rock song on rock radio right now. Look at the blue meter. That is the average db level.

Fenix I don't know who those guys are that your talking about. In the case of your pictures, they mean nothing to me. I'm not saying this in a bad way dude so don't take this the wrong way and just hear me out.

From those picture that your posted with the wave forms it seems that your using Wavelab to monitor that broadcast. If that's the case then your being fooled in to thinking that what your seeing on the meters is correct. If your listening and the meters showing that average to peak ration then turn up you listening volume and see if the average changes. If so then your not getting a good presentation of what's being broadcasted.

The only way to even be able to tell that your picture are even in the right ball park is to get the specs from the station and find out for sure what they are doing to their signal. If you don't understand why you can't get an accurate reading I'll try and explain.

There are just to many factors in play when your listening to a broadcast over the net or even if you record it. The reason being your sound card is what is controlling the sound coming into your computer and out your speakers. You may well record a file at that average to peak ratio but it could be and in most cases is because of your soundcard not being set up to be able to get the signal as it is being broadcasted.

From what I have seen and what I have read broadcasters will compress 20:1 with fast attacks and very slow release times. Thats why you can hear what seems to be wind sounds when you listen to radio on your computer. If you don't believe me skip on over to Digital Domain and read Bob Katz's articles on compression and radio ready. This guy knows what he's talking about.

Though I have been lead to believe this is the case I'm still sure that their are broadcasters that do things a little differently. I don't think one set rule is the only answer but I do think that the majority will lean one way or the other.

One quick question to you guys. Do you know why they compress the signal to begin with?

Later
sonicpaint

 

[sonicpaint]

Limiting is compression.

most stations limit, not compress.

Limiting is compression. Limiting is just compression 10:1 and above. So we're both right!

sonicpaint

 

[sjoko2]

Like said before there aren't really any radio standards, but most songs on the radio are mastered at an average db level of anywhere from -10db to -8db.

ehhhhhhh who told you that fable???? I can assure you if I mastered anything at -8 to -10 and gave it back to any client I'd be out of business. Radio stations use, as a standard, gain controllers. These are leveling amplifiers which compress a signal in a way that makes all sound "level", in other words it functions to increase lower volumes, it compresses the overall signal and it limits peaks.

Regarding your nice pictures........ no use unless you tap an analyzer direct into the end of a broadcast chain...........where I can assure you the picture would look very different.

 

[sonicpaint]

That prooves one of my points anyway.

Thanks for pointing that out.....lol. I was try'n to tell him that.....but he wouldn't listen.

I may not be entirely right but at least I was on that one.

 

[fenix]

God dammit, i'm not talking about the average db level of something broadcasted over the radio, I'm saying most commercial singles are mastered with an average db level of somewhere between -10 and -8. Yes, you are right, a broadcasted signal will be lucky if it has an average of -5.

 

[sjoko2]

God dammit, i'm not talking about the average db level of something broadcasted over the radio, I'm saying most commercial singles are mastered with an average db level of somewhere between -10 and -8. Yes, you are right, a broadcasted signal will be lucky if it has an average of -5.

fenix, sorry but that is just not so. Where did you get that info from? Singles are absolutely NOT mastered at that level, and a broadcast signal output runs very close under 0db