im going insane! serial ata drives dont work with pt??

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maskedman72

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as some of you may know from my other thread further down, i just took the plunge(last week)into pc recording with a pl/le 002 rack system from www.dawbox.com after a few years of major intimadation and fear of it. well i have been having problems from hell with all of this. the longer i use it all the more that goes wrong. i have been on the phone with pro tools tech support all week and with justin from dawbox all week too trying to tweek my pc to get things running right with no luck. im getting clicking and popping all the time(when eqing and playing and looping) and today everything locked up all of a sudden and my meters shot up into the red and stayed there and almost blew my friggin balls off!!! so i restart my pc and go back into the session and now the playbar in the edit window will be moving across the waveform but there will be no audio for about 3 seconds. than after the bar is out of an audio waveform it will keep playing for a few seconds,than when i press stop the audio keeps going of 3 seconds after stop has ben pressed!. keep in mind that this is all on only one track. the pro tools techs said(get this) that it is because of the following;

1. i am not running a dedicated firewire card.(i have a intel d865perl mb)

2. i am using serial ata drives and pt does not support this.

3. my motherboard needs to be replaced since it has no primary ata buss(only serial buss)

they told me i have to get rid of my serial drives and get ata drives and get a new motherboard!!(one that does not have serial busses) and a sepreate f/w card!!!
are these people nuts????
this is beginning to become a nightmare for me. the pro tools tech told me that "windows still has many bugs" and he also said"if you would have gone with a mac you wouldnt have any problems" wtf????

the one thing i will say is that justin from dawbox has been OUTSTANDING during this whole thing. he has been on the phone with me over this whole thing and he is just as frustrated as i am.
he is going to do whatever it takes to make my system right.
now that is good customer service!!!

going insane -jay
 
Good Lord.

The serial ATA drives are no good but the parallel ATA drives are? BullS&*t. Unless ProTools access the HDDs directly (which I seriously seriously doubt) the app shouldn't care in any way shape or form what calls the OS uses to access the HDDs. I do not, however, have any warm fuzzys with using a Intel motherboard. A separate firewire card is req'd?!? Yeah, right. And that comment about the Mac is utter bullshit. And if you advertise that your product works with Windows, you sure as hell don't come back with '...well, you shouda gone wit the Mac!" comment. I sure hope you are taking names, because this bull should go straight up the ladder.
 
I have a Digi002 rack!!

I can't even imagine what crap your going through but I'm sure glad I don't have those problems.

I'm running windows xp as my OS and haven't had any problems with my 002 rack. Have you made sure that all your hardware is compatible? Digi Design has quite a long list of requirements in order to work well with windows and Mac.

I'd suggest visiting the Digi site and look over the requirements making sure your system is up to the job. There is a lot of little stuff like the use of "VIA" chips and such. I'd also go through all the recommended setting that Digi has mentioned in the "Reference Guild" and making sure that no other processes are taking up resources on your PC. Is your host computer used for anything but audio?

As to the clicking/popping, make sure that in Pro Tools you have the clock set to "internal". In the "preferences" boost Pro Tools CPU usage and last but not least get involved (if not already) with the Pro Tools forums. Use the site to search for tech answers to common problems.

I hope you get your problem fixed and wish you all the best. There has to be something having to due with your host system that is causing the problem, at least that's what it sounds like to me.

Good luck,
sonicpaint
 
yea this is bullshit. there are plenty of people running pt in windows just fine. the mac comment was and wasnt funny to me at the same time. and yea im taking names(keith if you must know). if i was to go to digidesigns fourm and post this they would probly delete the thread and kick me out of the forums. so now i have to send my entire system back for changes(new drives and m/b). that is going to cost $100 in shipping round trip and more time. this is just one of the reasons why i have been scared of going with a daw all these years. i am so new to all of this that i cant make a good arguement with pro tools tech support cause i dont know what the hell im talking about. i feel like i am getting f**ked in some way here. im not running anything but pt le on this pc. that is all it is for. no online connection or virus softwere either. yea they said you cant run a digi 002 off of the f/w port on the mb. you have to get a f/w card.
they say that their website says all of these things clearly. well last night we looked and it dont say anywhere that serial ata isnt supported.
-jay
 
Wow, that's utter crap. The ProTools clowns don't actually know ANYTHING about SATA if they're blaming it on your issues. It uses the same command set as PATA (which, BTW, your M/B does have if you in fact have the D865PERL), and a Windows app would not be able to tell the difference unless it has VERY low-level hooks into the OS (which I doubt they've written, 'cause they'd be quite chipset specific).

As for the FireWire bit, I would ask them to explain to you, in writing, the supposed difference between IEEE1394-compliant ports on a M/B and IEE1394-compliant ports on an add-in card.

I'm deeply offended that tech support would even say most of the things you say they've said (I put it that way not because I don't believe you, but because I wasn't on the phone to hear it first-hand).

Ugh... I'm gonna go throw some stuff... ;)
 
trust me tech support said those things and came to the conclusion that all of my problems lie in my system so the result is a expensive pain in the ass return. i posted on digis forum and gave a link there to this thread and someone there is saying that my system has 2 or 3 incompatabilites.

anyone else running a d865perl mb?


dammit!
dammit!
dammit! this is total frustration.
 
humm, guess that's why it's called "the cutting/bleeding edge" of tech it's really nice when resellers release hardware and let there users work out all the bugs...

M$ come's to mind... well, 25-75% of soft and hardware seems like these days...

excuse ;)
 
Jay,

I am still watching your struggle and taking notes. I hope to avoid the headaches you are having right now. If it makes you feel any better the only reason why I haven't ordered my system yet and am not currently biting my tongue off trying to figure out problems way above my head with you is that my band played NYC on Sat. night and our van blew it's transmission 2 hours from home at 8 Sunday morning. You can imagine the poo I've been trying to scrape off my shoe's since.

Kenny
 
Not to add fuel to the fire or specifically point fingers, but if Justin at Dawbox built this system for you, I would think he would be apprised of compat issues as posted at the Digi website...

What is HE saying?


Cheers,
C
 
he is saying that he has built this same system countless times with no problems. he is going to do whatever it takes to make it right for me. even if it means a total change in motherboard and drives(with i think it will). he has been great.

dont kill kenny, that sucks. but yes take notes from me. by the end of all of this i should have a clue as to what will work. well right now i know what wont work.
 
Well, if Justin says this config works, wouldn't you then lay blame on a faulty component and not at Digidesign's feet?

Cheers,
C
 
what it all boils down to is that who can really say exactly what or where the problem lies??? the answer is no one knows. it is a computer and it could be a million things. the deal is that i am going to call digi and ask them to tell me what components they want me to use for the best system(no i dont want to just look at the system requirements listed on the site,there must be things that will work better than others among those choices and that is what im after). so far they say ide ata drives are the best type and the adaptic fire wire card is the best out of the ones they list. now im gonna ask them what motherboard to use. i allready have the chipset. if i build something exactly to their specs i would think i will be good to go. i hope this works!

-jay
 
to masked man.

ive been building computer systems since the early 70's.
so with that outtaway so you know i'm not a fool.
heres some suggestions. to try PLEASE bear with me....
1. do all your other windows apps work fine without crashes ?
office apps etc ?
if they do then obviously your basic pc is fine.
its audio related ....
2. have you run other AUDIO apps on your pc fine ??
if you dont have others you can get demoes . for example
maybe try the proper legal samplitude demo. you can get a lot of demos from hitsquad.com
3. a sympton sometimes is dma is not enabled on the hard drives.
i dont know your configuration. it would help if you posted it.
ie processor, motherboard, sound spec etc
 
Clark_Griswold said:
Well, if Justin says this config works, wouldn't you then lay blame on a faulty component and not at Digidesign's feet?

Cheers,
C
Click to expand...

Jay,

I guess the troubling thing is this...Justin at Dawbox says he has built this configuration for Digi setups before, right? If that is the case, then I doubt it is a compatability problem. You went with Dawbox because they are supposed to build boxes ready to go, compatable with the DAW software that you ALSO purchased from them(him), no?

If the setup he sold you is not compatable, then he sold you a bill of goods. What service is then offering if he has not tested this build to be compatable for YOUR needs! You could have paid the high school kid down the street to throw a box together for you! You went to DAWBOX for their supposed expererience and stability of their systems, right?

If it is compatable, then I think you have a faulty component somewhere.

Cheers,
C
 
My response

I normally do not participate in discussions like this, but I feel it is necessary to take a few moments and present my case.

First - I NEVER said the he should have purchased a Mac. During our discussion, he asked if Macs have as many problems and I explained that, because Macs are a closed platform, there are far fewer variables and thus fewer possibilities for incompatibilities. PC's have an incredible number of variables - mobo chipsets, processors, additional processing chips on the mobo, controller cards, NIC's, etc. Even one thing not being correct will cause problems with Pro Tools and other audio hardware and software.

The second thing is that, yes, I did recommend he get a supported and tested FW card. Yes, there are plenty of people out there running fine with the built in FW port. However, there is no guarantee that it will work because of the many different types of FW controller chips out there (hopefully this answers your question, marquis, as to why some work and some don't) as well as other processing that may be on the mobo to handle data from the FW port. If we see errors or problems related to FW, we're going to recommend they get a card that we have tested a know will work - this reduces the variables and we can proceed. If we're working with an 'unknown', the first step in ANY troubleshooting is to go for the most obvious. Again, on the PC side, there are SO MANY variables, that often times you must actively reduce those variables to track down exactly what the problem is. Our compatability docs give as much information as possible about what will work and what won't. Like I said though, due to the lack of a solid standard for components on the PC side, the number of possible causes for problems is immense. Even the same computer model can have different components from computer to computer (as witnessed with another customer who had a Dell laptop replaced with the same exact model - one made in Thailand, one in China, both with different power supplies, cd-rom drives and who knows what else...), so we have to insist on known and tested components and configurations.

Pro Tools does not currently support SATA drives - some people have seen success with these drives, most have not. Until Pro Tools is updated to deal specifically with these drives, we consider them unsupported and thus the recommendation to get a mobo that supports standard ATA drives. Just because DAWBOX hasn't had problems YET, doesn't mean that they won't experience some in the future (case in point).

Hopefully this will clear up some of the confusion on this matter. I have been a studio tech (for both Mac and PC) for over 12 years, so I have SOME experience with these kinds of problems. I just wanted to mention that so you have an idea of where I'm coming from.

One last thing - that 'clown comment was really uncalled for. I would remind everyone that showing respect for your fellows will get you further than name calling ever will.
 
Re: My response

DigiKeith said:
I normally do not participate in discussions like this, but I feel it is necessary to take a few moments and present my case.

First - I NEVER said the he should have purchased a Mac. During our discussion, he asked if Macs have as many problems and I explained that, because Macs are a closed platform, there are far fewer variables and thus fewer possibilities for incompatibilities. PC's have an incredible number of variables - mobo chipsets, processors, additional processing chips on the mobo, controller cards, NIC's, etc. Even one thing not being correct will cause problems with Pro Tools and other audio hardware and software.

The second thing is that, yes, I did recommend he get a supported and tested FW card. Yes, there are plenty of people out there running fine with the built in FW port. However, there is no guarantee that it will work because of the many different types of FW controller chips out there (hopefully this answers your question, marquis, as to why some work and some don't) as well as other processing that may be on the mobo to handle data from the FW port. If we see errors or problems related to FW, we're going to recommend they get a card that we have tested a know will work - this reduces the variables and we can proceed. If we're working with an 'unknown', the first step in ANY troubleshooting is to go for the most obvious. Again, on the PC side, there are SO MANY variables, that often times you must actively reduce those variables to track down exactly what the problem is. Our compatability docs give as much information as possible about what will work and what won't. Like I said though, due to the lack of a solid standard for components on the PC side, the number of possible causes for problems is immense. Even the same computer model can have different components from computer to computer (as witnessed with another customer who had a Dell laptop replaced with the same exact model - one made in Thailand, one in China, both with different power supplies, cd-rom drives and who knows what else...), so we have to insist on known and tested components and configurations.

Pro Tools does not currently support SATA drives - some people have seen success with these drives, most have not. Until Pro Tools is updated to deal specifically with these drives, we consider them unsupported and thus the recommendation to get a mobo that supports standard ATA drives. Just because DAWBOX hasn't had problems YET, doesn't mean that they won't experience some in the future (case in point).

Hopefully this will clear up some of the confusion on this matter. I have been a studio tech (for both Mac and PC) for over 12 years, so I have SOME experience with these kinds of problems. I just wanted to mention that so you have an idea of where I'm coming from.

One last thing - that 'clown comment was really uncalled for. I would remind everyone that showing respect for your fellows will get you further than name calling ever will.
Click to expand...

hello keith! welecome to this bbs! you are right. you never said that i should go out any buy a mac, you said that if i had gone with a mac i wouldnt have these problems. i dont want anyone to get the impression that keith and several other digi techs havent been of great service to me over all of this cause they have been.
i am very pleased with digis tech support. they have gone over everything they can think of to help me out. i apologize to you keith for putting your name in this and for anything that may have offended you,or digi for that matter.
its just that i have called digis techs for support and i have called dawbox for support and i am being pulled in 2 directions and i am smack dab in the middle of this situation as someone who knows nothing about building and configing a pc. and also i see that several people on digis duc have a beef of some type with dawbox that comes from far before my time and as a result i am in the middle. all i want is a box that works,with the right chipset and mb and whatever else to make that happen. i did not realize sata was a no-no until one of digis techs had told me. hell, i didnt even know there was a difference between the 2! i think it was keith who told me that i should be on a dedicated f/w card too. i didnt know about that either. looking at their sit i see where it says that so i sill follow keiths advise and get the adaptic card. thanks for all of the info you have posted here keith. i just wished i had more knowledge about all of this before i boyght my system but than again how was i supposed to learn? well i am learning the hard way i guess. having said all of that it seems that by my posts i have put keith in a position that he didnt want to,and shouldnt be in(coming here and posting his case)and again i apoligize to him for that and now i have other people mad at me for all of this as well and they know who they are and my apology to them. there are always lessons to learn and i have learned them with this experience as a whole. next time i will keep my problems between the manafactuer and myself as to avoid the politics invloved in posting in forums.
to everyone that has helped me..i thank you. the problem is being fixed and resolved to my satisfaction.
-jay
 
I would like to hear a solid technical explanation why an application running on any OS cannot deal with drives supported by that OS. As some mentioned before, the application does not have access to the drives directly. All drive calls are handled by the OS and its drivers.

Same goes for the FW controllers.

Most of these things happen if you rely on using non-standard features, or do not adhere to the standard.
 
Pretty much what Havoc said...

I want a very good explanation as to why there is a difference for Pro Tools between a PATA drive and a SATA drive. As I've said before, PT can't possibly even know what the difference is unless it has some VERY low-level drivers in the OS.

What kind of systems have you seen SATA problems? Were they related to AMD processors, Intel, both? Did they use an onboard off-southbridge PCI-attached SATA RAID controller? A PCI card? Or were they on-southbridge (i865, i875)?

The only difference I've seen is that there is an imperceptible (but benchmarkable) difference in the latency of reading from and writing to SATA drives (due to current drives having PATA-to-SATA bridges). But the difference is like that of using one of WD's 2500JB drives versus a 2000JB (that is to say virtually nonexistant).

Sorry about the "clown" remark Keith, but it sounds like your company has been living in the sheltered world of the Mac for far too long. There are quite a number of variables, but they are also all manageable so long as the application only relies on the standards that exist.

I should know, I work for one of the top-ten software companies in the world and we deal with this sort of thing ALL the time.

The only problems with hardware that I've seen is when the hardware itself doesn't conform to standards (i.e., the inferior PCI implementation in VIA chipsets, or the vile ACPI in Intel's i810/i815). AFAIK, there is no known errata for the board that's being used here nor the chipset on the board.
 
As a so-so programmer I have never had the need to try and create a program that went any deeper into the BIOS than those calls provided by the HLL that I was using. It is entirely possible that Digidesign used a low level language (assembler?) or specific C+ libraries that directly address the HDD to eek out additional performance. I had not previously considered the possbility, but apparently that is what Digidesign has done. Good to know!
 
BTW, I am using an 865 motherboard from MSI, and I am getting much reduced performance from my SATA drive (attached via the Intel ICH5 controller). On the order of 20% less performance than my standard ATA drive (same brand, different capacity). It shows up in benchmarks, and I have had droputs and and lackluster performance in Pro Tools LE, Cubase SX, and Samplitude, it's not just a Pro Tools problem. I believe it's a matter of the "bleeding edge" not quite being up to snuff yet. Eagerly awaiting new drivers from MSI and Intel.

On a side note, I'm a little bummed that Dawbox sold you a system that is not working. I used to think that shop did great work, but at this point the comments I've heard from people who've bought from them are exactly 50-50 positive/negative. In the computer industry, 50/50 is not good.
 
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