I'll Tell You Something--New/old original

R

Robus

Well-known member
Here is my latest recording. It's a departure from the songs I've been doing lately. I wrote this in the late 1990s and recorded it originally on a 16 bit Roland VS880ex synced to Cakewalk Pro Audio 7.

It's one of my favorites of my old songs. However the sound quality and musicianship on that recording are lacking. I thought it would be fun to remake it from scratch.

All comments welcome. I have not pitch corrected the lead vocals, to be true to the way I used to record music back then. Do you think it needs it?

NEW MIX:



I’ll Tell You Something

Call maybe call
With your stories of the war
Watched the window
Watched the water
I guess I seen them all
Called from your jail did you?
Just to hear me tell you something
Something happy, something sorry
Anyway something new
Something real
Something strong
Something true

Well I’ll tell you something
I’ll tell you anything
I’ll tell everything
You look at me dark eyes inviting me in

Lines on your face
Maybe lines in the sand
It’s a hard world
To stay true in
Got the restless demands
But I’ll follow you where you want me to
We’ll set out to where you want to
Under my command
Somewhere deep
Somewhere strong
Somewhere new

Well I’ll take you somewhere
I’ll take you anywhere
I’ll take you everywhere when
You look at me
Mad eyes invite me to dare

Call, maybe call, with your stories of the war.
I concede we disagree
But cant’s can’t come easy
You started something and I don’t see an end.
Not another day goes by without the touch
Of your skin to my skin
Well who would have thought it in the
life of leisure, energy and breathless
Pleasure? Pack your things
We’re leaving on a wild storm

Nighfalls, evasions and dancers
Come the nightfall
Come the questions
Come the too-perfect answers
Wherefores and whys
We left them hanging on that wall
Turn to me
Burn through me
Let the pieces fall

Won’t you please take me somewhere
Where we’re strong and we are true?

Well I’ll tell you something
I’ll take you anywhere
I’ll take you everything
You look at me
Mad eyes invite me to share.

(Words and music Ray Taylor 2016)
 
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My personal opinion, no. It is not on perfect pitch, but it is not pitchy.

I wonder if there is some way to get your voice more relaxed. It doesn't have a relaxed sound. I am listening to the tune, everything is just flowing along, but the vocals don't feel as relaxed as the rest of the sound. The singing isn't bad, but it isn't adding to the vibe.

Everything sounds fine, but if you could get the vocals a bit more relaxed, I think it would improve the overall production. )my humble opinion).

Mix is good as usual.
 
hi robus.
i think the recording and performance are good without any issues. i heard a few off notes in the vocal but really it's not a big deal...since it wasn't too far off my mind filled in the right pitch.

the lyrics are nice.

the only mix issue i hear is that in headphones sometimes things are too far panned (like i hear a tom that sounds way left, and one lead guitar sounds way left). i bet on monitors that sounds good, but in headphones it's distracting, imo. one composition issue is that it's mostly all verses without any chorus or tension. like the part when you sing "You look at me dark eyes inviting me in" sounds like it wants to break open into a chorus, but then you stop it and go back to the verses. since the verses are long and that line that sounded like a release of sort, it wounds up being out of skew and creating some agita b/c we listeners want more of that release/break. i hope that makes some sense.
 
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ok, there's the bass. much better. i'm still a little harshness in the 1khz-3khz area at times. OH's could come down a touch, IMO. Does this version have a widener? I think things are panned further out here.
 
Thanks. I'll have some fixes coming to the lead vocal soon. Still undecided about what, if any, pitch correction it might need.

DM60, singing with confidence is always the challenge for me. Just singing it a bunch of times helps to burn the melody and lyric in my mind, which helps. What would really help is gigging the song--preferably on bass, that line is fun to play. Sadly I have no time for bands and probably never will again.

Nola, yeah I hear you. It's an odd arrangement and not like the songs I am writing these days. I think of the "I'll tell you something" part as the chorus. I was tempted to do more revisions but decided to try to record it in the spirit of the song as I wrote it twenty years ago, or thereabouts. I wanted to see what I could do to an old song with my current recording and playing skills.

Andrushkiwt, no widener or anything like that. Guitars are mostly hard panned, which is my usual practice. That cutting rhythm guitar on the right is a telecaster through a Fender Deluxe Reverb, hard panned. It mostly plays chords but shifts to a lead line in final chorus and outro. There is a clean stratocaster hard panned left, lower in the mix, doing a similar rhythm part. The lead guitar that plays on the left is an SG, I think. I can't even remember what's in the solo break--sounds to me like a strat or tele on the left and and SG or Les Paul on the right, but I recorded a bunch of takes with different guitar/amp combinations and just picked through them to find the ones where I came closest to nailing it. The harshness you mention must be in the guitars somewhere, or else a byproduct of compression. I'll have to track it down. The toms are on a stereo track, so I'm stuck with the current panning until and unless I give the drums another once-over.
 
New mix in the OP.

It's more finished now. Recorded new vocals with changes to melody and lyrics. I think it's much improved.
 
It's not the pitchiness of the vocals that is an issue. It's more the way you pitch the voice, double track and harmony.
They rub against each other like flanging and have that detuning effect on each other.
The bass has a 90s bouncing ball rubbery fretlessness to it. No bad but something that was very big with Mick Karn from japan etc. though without the slippy slides.
 
Robus, you asked what plugin I used on my master fader. I just use a maximizer. Otherwise if I push the master fader up my mix clips. The maximizer somehow allows louder volume without clipping.
 
The twin solo is really fun. Guitars overall are well done. Nice tones. Love the clean guitar on the right.
I got used to the snare, but honestly, it sounds like a cardboard box except when you really hit it (and there are a few hits where it sounds like you close to the rim that sound better as well), and it's a bit distracting off on the left. I've never been a big fan of super wide drum kits. Not saying that it's wrong, just not my thing. :)
Overall no nits on the balance of things. Everything is there and about the level I'd expect it.

Yeah, I've been using the Ozone Maximizer from iZotope. Just about all I put on the master out besides EQ and a bit of tape saturation...oh, and a glue comp (C1-L1) at 1.1:1 before any of it.
 
Thanks man. Yeah, the drums are in need of some help. I'll pull them in so they are less wide. I'm not sure where that swishiness on the cymbals is coming from, as the raw tracks don't sound that way. Compression artifact, I assume--either on my master bus or on Soundcloud's algorithm. I think the exaggerated sibilance on the lead vocal is from the same source.
 
I like it as a whole. If I could give any sort of opinion for change on this, I'd say maybe add some 10khz to the snare drum. That's just me though, as I like a bright and snappy snare personally, however as it sits in the mix it fits well.

I like the vibe you have going on in this song.
 
rayc said:
It's not the pitchiness of the vocals that is an issue. It's more the way you pitch the voice, double track and harmony.
They rub against each other like flanging and have that detuning effect on each other.
Click to expand...
Yeah, that's the big thing I was noticing. The BGVs are probably too loud relative to the lead, and the timing isn't perfect. (That's always the trick: to get the timing perfect)

As to the wide panning... whenever it's not lead parts, it's probably not a big deal. When that guitar on the right switches to a solo at the end, it should probably be a lot closer to center tho.
 
Good song and enjoyable listen. Very nice arrangement I love the stop and then the startup with the twin guitars. excellent bass drum sound. Snare sounds good too. It's a matter of personal preference but I would bring the drums down in the mix...just a tad. As far as the vocal, I agree with rayc that the doubling and the backgrounds are not real tight and it causes an illusion of a pitchy vocal performance. I would probably loose the double lead vocal and tighten up the BGV. To me the vocal seems a little thick...maybe a 250K cut or it may just be another artifact of the doubled lead vocal.
All in all its great work arranging, writing, and playing robus!
 
Nice sense of clarity and space in this mix. Each element is occupying it's own place and contributing to the overall sound of the mix.

One tiny nit to my ears, I think the guitar on the left that comes in after the break about 3/4 through the song stands out a little too much.

There are different ways to approach same octave doubled vocals during mix time. I find that when I have these tracks, I generally don't like to have them at equal levels. That usually gives me the sense of the singer standing beside the singer, which is generally not what the vocalist intended. Rather, the vocalist intended to add a 'thickening agent' to the vocals. So, what I normally do with these tracks, is I choose the stronger one to be the main line, and I apply some very generous compression to the second vocal and mix it in under the main line, 10 - 15 (or more or less) dB less. This gives the thickening sense without the sensation of identical twins belting out the tune.

As a general statement, I feel that your vocals would come across much better if you stuck with a single main line when it comes to non-harmony parts. Much of the time as I am listening to this song, I am getting a confused sense from the vocals.

Another thought I had on the vocals as I listened was that perhaps some of the more harmony focused parts would work well out to the sides some.

The above being said, I must add that I like where you are going with the vocals here. It's a bit more adventurous in terms of emphasis than I recall from some of your other tracks, and I think this is a good direction for you. I think you have a unique and identifiable quality to your vocals. The more you embrace your natural characteristics, and the more you relax and deliver in a really flowing way, the closer you will be to coming into your own.

With any performance, there are really two broad categories that are distinguishable to a listener in how a player delivers. The player is either playing the part, or the player is playing the song. The best bands I have ever been involved with were the ones where the individuals were more focused on listening to each other and listening to the overall song while effortlessly performing it, as opposed to four guys who were just focused on nailing their own part without really paying attention to the music. With your instruments, I am getting the sensation that you are playing the song. You kind of lose yourself in the groove and the moment, and you just play. Sounds like a band. With the vocals, I am getting the sensation that you are focusing on getting good takes, so you are playing the part. I think you need to get yourself to the point where your vocal delivery is no different than your guitar performance.

Full disclaimer on my opinions when it comes to vocals. I'm one of those folks who can offer opinions, but I cannot do it myself. You are doing a better job than I could hope to do.
 
Thanks for those comments, guys. A lot to think about. I have never had much luck doubling vocals. I'll lower or ditch the double and see about tightening up the harmonies. Kindafishy, that's a perceptive comment about playing the part and playing the song. There's a confidence level that I have playing guitar or bass that I'll probably never have with vocals. When I'm tracking guitars, I'm listening to the song as much or more than the part I'm playing. There are some tricks I learned years ago to help do that, like keeping my eyes off the fretboard and turning down the monitor level of the instrument I'm tracking so that I'm hearing the part within--not over--the ensemble. Getting the amp out of the room where I'm tracking helps in that regard too.

There must be tricks like that to getting a vocal performance, but I haven't found them yet. Most of my effort is still going into singing in tune and in time. However, I feel there has been incremental progress and so I push on. I do believe in the songs that I am writing. I'd love to hear what an accomplished singer might do with this, or any of my tunes.
 
Hey Robus... Got your message and I'm happy to help.

A real good bass sound and a real cool bass part. Clean guitars were nice and chimey without being abrasive. Nice clean Strat-like tone.

I like the way the double lead guitars play off of each other. In fact all the guitar parts and tones are nice to my ear.

I like the kick and cymbal sounds. The snare is a bit slappy and missing a little strength. A snare needs "umph" in the 180hz-220hz range. This doesn't have quite enough of it. The snare is also noticeably dryer than most of the other tracks.

I think the biggest thing that needs attention is the vocal. There is some sort of delay/reverb or something that I think is distracting. There are some double tracking in spots that could be tighter. Then tonally, there is a hint of cloudiness. Like a notch cut is necessary in the 300hz-600hz octave somewhere. Then I think it could use a small shelf boost above 5K or so. But be careful with that - probably a 2db boost or 3db at most. That can go from "nice" to "grating" in a fraction of a db.
 
Thanks TM. Jimi mentioned the need for a low-mid cut in the lead vocal, and I agree. I'm going to try one more fix on the vocals, sort out that conflict between the lead and double, and then let the song rest for a while. I've gotten pulled into another song that I hope to post pretty soon.
 
Hi Ray - got your PM.... Couldn't catch up with this as I was super busy with work (fixing buggy software) and recording/mixing a new song.
I've read through all the comments quickly and they are pretty much spot on for mix suggestion.

The mix is very clean which is a relief to my tired ears. Limiter on main bus will give you a bit of volume if you feel the need to compete with the average song on the radio.

All the instruments are easy to distinguish, and nicely levelled. Being a guitar player I really enjoyed all the riffs scattered through the song.
I actually listened to the first mix but didn't have time to sit and analyze. This one is better - vocals tuned a bit?

Vocals are unique in tone
- sort of a Dylanesque flavor to them. As a vocalist I would agree with you that you need to memorize them before you do too much recording so you can concentrate on delivery. If you're flailing around looking for notes that fit the chords, you tend to be inconsistent and all over the place.
I usually write the melody and sing it several times before even picking up an instrument. It helps me find a comfortable range and I've pretty much memorized it so it's just a matter of finding out what key you've picked and finish it off. I sometime move a semitone up or down to avoid sharps and flats though.

One suggestion (because the mix is not really an issue for me), is to try and reduce the sliding around in the vocal phrases. a) hard to tune when there's no break between pitches. b) you can really go pitchy if you don't aim straight for the note. Long sustained words that end with vocal runs are really easy to go astray on, so I usually try to cut the off before that happens.

Your vocal arrangement is good - it just needs some refinement. Try to avoid singing way above or below your range as the strength will not be there. Plus try and keep the main melody within a reasonable range, otherwise you will lose the ability to harmonize smoothly as its too low or too high at different points.

For example, the tune I'm working on now sits in Fm because my highest harmony note is F at the moment (getting older). I actually wrote it in Em (almost an octave higher) and was done but couldn't add any harmonies (low or high) that I liked. I don't do low harmonies often because my low range is pretty bad. Johnny Cash I'm not - no stability. So I changed it a few times and ended up in Fm. I try to work with my strengths and avoid my weaknesses.

Anyway I hope my ramblings are helpful... great song and like I said was mixed to my liking....
 
Thanks Ido. Actually, I re-recorded the lead vocal completely between the earlier mix and this one. And yeah, I did break down and do some pitch correction on the lead vocal. I did not correct the double--which may be part of the problem here. I'm going to do that when I come back to the song. Maybe even one more take on the lead vocal. The key, as you say, is getting very familiar with the lines and melody. I have a habit of forgetting my own lyrics as I'm trying to sing. ;)

I hear you about keeping within my range, though unfortunately that's about half an octave... I'm finding I'm better at the top of my range than at the bottom, that's for sure. I actually felt pretty comfortable singing it. The only part that was clearly out of my range was that "you're skin and my skin" thing in the bridge, which was deliberate--I kind of like the effect of dropping low all of a sudden.

The low volume of my mixes is something I haven't quite figured out how to address. I track at levels that leave lots of headroom. That and the compression that goes into so many of the tracks saps the volume. I don't like the way the makeup gain on the RealComp compressor sounds. So far, every effort I've made to boost the volume back up by adding gain on the master bus winds up sounding harsh and unmusical to me. I'd be interested to hear what utilities others are using.
 
I am listening on my HS80s tonight. I really like the guitars - good playing, great use of diverse tones (!), nice and cleanly recorded, great use of panning - maybe a touch wide but very cool ambient-wise. I think the lead guitar at the end could come up a bit - after the vocals are done.

Agree with DM. The vocals are not dead-on-point in-tune and ringing with the tones. They're not bad or anything, I just think with some minor tinkering they could have synergy with the chords.

The cymbals are really going crazy with the swishing. It really is quite distracting. It sounds like they have a tremolo on them. They are breaking up in a very unnatural way.

Hope this helps!
 
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