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abooganza
New member
Great stuff Sonusman,thanks for all the info,much appreciated.
CHEERS! - abooganza
CHEERS! - abooganza
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giggsy
New member
I don't think Fenix was trying to put Ed down here, although I'll let him speak for himself in that issue.
I'm just glad he provided a new angle/tip on how to compress vocals. I, for one, was previously unaware of the method he was talking about.
I HIGHLY appreciate Ed's efforts with this thread. However, I do feel that some of you are overprotecting "the holy one". He's very capable of standing up for himself in an argument, I'm sure. Maybe some of the oldtimers/big time posters here should lighten up just a little?
giggsy
I'm just glad he provided a new angle/tip on how to compress vocals. I, for one, was previously unaware of the method he was talking about.
I HIGHLY appreciate Ed's efforts with this thread. However, I do feel that some of you are overprotecting "the holy one". He's very capable of standing up for himself in an argument, I'm sure. Maybe some of the oldtimers/big time posters here should lighten up just a little?
giggsy
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sonnylarsen
New member
It's called "learning to walk before you run". I don't care about what one producer does out of how many hundreds. I care about learning the basics right now.
It's interesting to see how that scenario plays out in different areas of life. People don't want to learn scales and arpeggios anymore, they want to learn to play the great licks they hear on the radio. They don't want to learn about how to construct sonnets and haikus and other "structured" poetry, they wanna be Alan Ginsberg or Sylvia Plath right away, not understanding that all the great musicians, all the great poets, all the great artists, started off learning the basics (with the exception of a VERY few). This is why so many guitar students go to lessons and stop after they learn a few chords.
The fact is, I want to learn the basic, conventional way to do things before I start to alter it for artistic reasons...hell, I'm not even qualified to alter it until I understand it. I've been a guitar player for 12 years and I've used all sorts of gear, but I have only learned what exactly compression does, or how reverb works in the last couple of years. All I knew befroe that was to adjust various knobs until things sound good.
And, before I forget...fenix, you are a BLASPHEMER!!!!!
It's interesting to see how that scenario plays out in different areas of life. People don't want to learn scales and arpeggios anymore, they want to learn to play the great licks they hear on the radio. They don't want to learn about how to construct sonnets and haikus and other "structured" poetry, they wanna be Alan Ginsberg or Sylvia Plath right away, not understanding that all the great musicians, all the great poets, all the great artists, started off learning the basics (with the exception of a VERY few). This is why so many guitar students go to lessons and stop after they learn a few chords.
The fact is, I want to learn the basic, conventional way to do things before I start to alter it for artistic reasons...hell, I'm not even qualified to alter it until I understand it. I've been a guitar player for 12 years and I've used all sorts of gear, but I have only learned what exactly compression does, or how reverb works in the last couple of years. All I knew befroe that was to adjust various knobs until things sound good.
And, before I forget...fenix, you are a BLASPHEMER!!!!!
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zip
New member
Disagree again...
"I HIGHLY appreciate Ed's efforts with this thread. However, I do feel that some of you are overprotecting "the holy one". He's very capable of standing up for himself in an argument, I'm sure. Maybe some of the oldtimers/big time posters here should lighten up just a little?"
Ed is much more capable than you realize in this regard but...
...we are NOT protecting him. I think what the more senior or "big-time posters" are protecting is the truth inherent about obtaining a good recording.
When someone says... "Person X is the only person who can do that while mastering" I am obliged to tell them they are incorrect.
(Sorry fenix...that is not a direct dig on you - it's an example)
When someone says...a low compression ratio isn't the best way -(that may or may not be true depending entirely on the desired outcome) we are obliged to point out certain points about the post were missed.
I guess we have been around long enough and are experienced enough - that we have been through most of these discussions and heard many of the outcomes.
So yeah - Ed can hold his own.
I - for one need SOME DAMN LAW AND ORDER IN THIS PLACE!!!
Kidding man...all is cool.
peace!
zip >>
"I HIGHLY appreciate Ed's efforts with this thread. However, I do feel that some of you are overprotecting "the holy one". He's very capable of standing up for himself in an argument, I'm sure. Maybe some of the oldtimers/big time posters here should lighten up just a little?"
Ed is much more capable than you realize in this regard but...
...we are NOT protecting him. I think what the more senior or "big-time posters" are protecting is the truth inherent about obtaining a good recording.
When someone says... "Person X is the only person who can do that while mastering" I am obliged to tell them they are incorrect.
(Sorry fenix...that is not a direct dig on you - it's an example)
When someone says...a low compression ratio isn't the best way -(that may or may not be true depending entirely on the desired outcome) we are obliged to point out certain points about the post were missed.
I guess we have been around long enough and are experienced enough - that we have been through most of these discussions and heard many of the outcomes.
So yeah - Ed can hold his own.
I - for one need SOME DAMN LAW AND ORDER IN THIS PLACE!!!
Kidding man...all is cool.
peace!
zip >>
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fenix
New member
guhlenn said:
But then you go and say that overcompressed BLINK182 music is better...you're going down fast my friend...
what do you mean by "better"? Better than what? Better than anything that has been recorded by anyone on these boards? Yes. I venture to say you have never even heard this CD. And no, it is not overcompressed. If it were we'd have all kinds of pumping going on. The CD sounds like it only has 3db or so of compression anyways. Limiting, however, is to the extreme (not over limited either).
And to the rest of you, no I was not puttin down Sonusman. I was just making an argument that even the home novice can acheive sounds similar to the big guys if they do what the big guys are doing with moderation.
guhlenn
Oh REALLY????
b3etter then 3db compression... i wouldn't know the exact phrase but YOU said something like; you(ed promote only 3 db compression while BLINK uses...)
It's stupid to go in on what i heard and didn't hear... you don't know. Anyway i heard (hard to not hear it...) the record... i have a smaller brother.... he's 13 so he's excused taste only develops after 15 it seems (hehe common bash me! )
And to the anything on this board comment; you would be more then surprised on how many really good recordings are posted here, damn there are even some "celebrities" here
and the blink album is overproduced at the very least... but then again YOU may like it... and that's ok. Britney has fans too...
Guhlenn
It's stupid to go in on what i heard and didn't hear... you don't know. Anyway i heard (hard to not hear it...) the record... i have a smaller brother.... he's 13 so he's excused
taste only develops after 15 it seems (hehe common bash me! )And to the anything on this board comment; you would be more then surprised on how many really good recordings are posted here, damn there are even some "celebrities" here
and the blink album is overproduced at the very least... but then again YOU may like it... and that's ok. Britney has fans too...
Guhlenn
zip
New member
OK kids settle down
"damn there are even some "celebrities" here "
Or this Celeb will pummel you both! LOL
"damn there are even some "celebrities" here "
Or this Celeb will pummel you both!
LOL
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fenix
New member
i said blink 182 was retarded music. I do like the old stuff though.
Although retarded...they have one of the best drummers out there.
Although retarded...they have one of the best drummers out there.
D
David B
New member
Lotsa great stuff here. Thanks, Ed!
I'm not an engineer, but rather a longtime guitarist who's only gotten into home recording in the last two years. (I think there are a LOT of us musicians who ONLY got interested in things since the advent of cheap, digital, home recording -- so for us newbies, info like this is invaluable!)
I'm gonna run one by you guys --for Ed, or anyone else:
One thing I've been having trouble with lately has been learning to hear compression and really recognize/understand what I'm hearing.
I don't find it too tough on single instruments during the recording stages, but I'm at the point of mastering (with an Alesis Masterlink) and trying to add the final touches of (DSP) compression and limiter, and I find myself somewhat baffled.
When it's the whole mixed song, I'm having trouble hearing the difference between changes in attack, release and threshold settings and even the ratios themselves. And while I know adding these final touches are important, I'm not quite sure what they're supposed to sound like, so I'm not sure I'd recognize what's right if I tripped over it or went by it.
When I've compressed single instruments like bass or guitar, I basically turned the nobs until I found that obvious "AH-HA!" setting.
With a whole mix, beacuse the idea is to be subtle, I'm not perceiving anything as "wrong," "terrible" OR as "Wow, there it is!" either.
To me it's all similar shades of gray. More like: "this sounds pretty good, but so does that." And I know that means my ears are not experienced enough to make sense of what I'm hearing. I'm trying trial and error thing flipping the bypass on and off, but one thing sounds a lot like the next to these green ears. (That "burn a lot of mix CDs" idea is on my agenda)
So how do I know when I've got it right? Or right enough?
What should I be listening TO and FOR when I'm adding the finishing touches to the mix? Is there a "sweet spot" I should be trying to locate? That "there it is!" moment? If a lot of settings are gonna sound good, how do I choose? What are the things I need to focus on HEARING to find the correct attack and release parameters?
Or am I just WAY overthinking this? Should I just add something really subtle to smooth things out and just go with it.
How do I train myself to really HEAR compression?
I'm not an engineer, but rather a longtime guitarist who's only gotten into home recording in the last two years. (I think there are a LOT of us musicians who ONLY got interested in things since the advent of cheap, digital, home recording -- so for us newbies, info like this is invaluable!)
I'm gonna run one by you guys --for Ed, or anyone else:
One thing I've been having trouble with lately has been learning to hear compression and really recognize/understand what I'm hearing.
I don't find it too tough on single instruments during the recording stages, but I'm at the point of mastering (with an Alesis Masterlink) and trying to add the final touches of (DSP) compression and limiter, and I find myself somewhat baffled.
When it's the whole mixed song, I'm having trouble hearing the difference between changes in attack, release and threshold settings and even the ratios themselves. And while I know adding these final touches are important, I'm not quite sure what they're supposed to sound like, so I'm not sure I'd recognize what's right if I tripped over it or went by it.
When I've compressed single instruments like bass or guitar, I basically turned the nobs until I found that obvious "AH-HA!" setting.
With a whole mix, beacuse the idea is to be subtle, I'm not perceiving anything as "wrong," "terrible" OR as "Wow, there it is!" either.
To me it's all similar shades of gray. More like: "this sounds pretty good, but so does that." And I know that means my ears are not experienced enough to make sense of what I'm hearing. I'm trying trial and error thing flipping the bypass on and off, but one thing sounds a lot like the next to these green ears. (That "burn a lot of mix CDs" idea is on my agenda)
So how do I know when I've got it right? Or right enough?
What should I be listening TO and FOR when I'm adding the finishing touches to the mix? Is there a "sweet spot" I should be trying to locate? That "there it is!" moment? If a lot of settings are gonna sound good, how do I choose? What are the things I need to focus on HEARING to find the correct attack and release parameters?
Or am I just WAY overthinking this? Should I just add something really subtle to smooth things out and just go with it.
How do I train myself to really HEAR compression?
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zip
New member
Well...
If you really want to do at-home mastering the first thing you need to do is make a DUPLICATE of the premastered mix. Reason...when you screw up (and you will) you don't want all your hard work to be lost.
Second...most times you want to limit a final mix - not compress it.
For a "do it yourself" job I would recommend either a Waves L1 Ultramaximizer or Sonictimeworks Mastering Compressor...(really a limiter)
Since limiting is basically compression with an infinite : 1 ratio it allows you to maximize overall volume effectively. You'll need to use it with EQ plugs since most of these programs have a "sonic profile" you may need to adjust for. EQ's generally go before the limiter in the chain. Set the limiter output to slightly below digital zero so it doesn't clip.
The controls on these two units are very basic...just threshold, output and release times to set. As you lower the threshold the track will become louder. Setting the release is the "art" in the process and varies with the source material.
I usually find limiting to thresholds between -3 and -6dB gives the best result but again...this will vary with the source material. Also don't forget to dither at the very end of the signal chain...
Hope this helps a bit...
zip >>
If you really want to do at-home mastering the first thing you need to do is make a DUPLICATE of the premastered mix. Reason...when you screw up (and you will) you don't want all your hard work to be lost.
Second...most times you want to limit a final mix - not compress it.
For a "do it yourself" job I would recommend either a Waves L1 Ultramaximizer or Sonictimeworks Mastering Compressor...(really a limiter)
Since limiting is basically compression with an infinite : 1 ratio it allows you to maximize overall volume effectively. You'll need to use it with EQ plugs since most of these programs have a "sonic profile" you may need to adjust for. EQ's generally go before the limiter in the chain. Set the limiter output to slightly below digital zero so it doesn't clip.
The controls on these two units are very basic...just threshold, output and release times to set. As you lower the threshold the track will become louder. Setting the release is the "art" in the process and varies with the source material.
I usually find limiting to thresholds between -3 and -6dB gives the best result but again...this will vary with the source material. Also don't forget to dither at the very end of the signal chain...
Hope this helps a bit...
zip >>
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sonnylarsen
New member
zip, would I be able to do all that on computer, like with sound forge?
zip
New member
Yes...
You could probably get a bit better results with Wavelab or Logic but Soundforge will definitely work.
Use the plug-in chainer...
Chain up all the plugs and put the limiter last in the chain...
Do you have version 5 or 4.5? I've had both so I may be able to help with the details if needed...
The cool thing about V5 is you can activate / deactivate the plugs by just checking the box in the chainer...
This way you can hear the differences as you go...
What I used to do in SF is chain 2 or 3 EQ's followed by any other effects (like stereo enhancement) then finally the limiter. I'd set the limiter to a lower setting - maybe -2 or-3dB THEN start setting the EQ's. I found if you set the EQ's FIRST the limiter may change the spectrum which leads to more EQ adjustments. Hear what the limiter does first...It will most likely enhance the lower frequencies.
The reason I put 2 or 3 EQ's in the chain is simple. Many parametric EQ's are 6 band - this includes a low and high shelf.
I usually find more than 4 bands I want to cut so I find it easier to start with several EQ's - in case you need them.
BTW...this is not TRUE mastering but with a lot of time / patience and a good ear you can get some pretty good results.
If you have a KILLER tune and want to go commercial with it - take it to a mastering house. If you have a demo or just want to do it for artistic reasons the above works.
Make sure after it sounds good in your monitors you burn the file to disc and listen in as many places as possible...a boombox, your car, your stereo etc....
Chances are you will need to go back and make adjustments until it is right. (hence the reason I told ya to make backup of the original... )
zip >>
You could probably get a bit better results with Wavelab or Logic but Soundforge will definitely work.
Use the plug-in chainer...
Chain up all the plugs and put the limiter last in the chain...
Do you have version 5 or 4.5? I've had both so I may be able to help with the details if needed...
The cool thing about V5 is you can activate / deactivate the plugs by just checking the box in the chainer...
This way you can hear the differences as you go...
What I used to do in SF is chain 2 or 3 EQ's followed by any other effects (like stereo enhancement) then finally the limiter. I'd set the limiter to a lower setting - maybe -2 or-3dB THEN start setting the EQ's. I found if you set the EQ's FIRST the limiter may change the spectrum which leads to more EQ adjustments. Hear what the limiter does first...It will most likely enhance the lower frequencies.
The reason I put 2 or 3 EQ's in the chain is simple. Many parametric EQ's are 6 band - this includes a low and high shelf.
I usually find more than 4 bands I want to cut so I find it easier to start with several EQ's - in case you need them.
BTW...this is not TRUE mastering but with a lot of time / patience and a good ear you can get some pretty good results.
If you have a KILLER tune and want to go commercial with it - take it to a mastering house. If you have a demo or just want to do it for artistic reasons the above works.
Make sure after it sounds good in your monitors you burn the file to disc and listen in as many places as possible...a boombox, your car, your stereo etc....
Chances are you will need to go back and make adjustments until it is right. (hence the reason I told ya to make backup of the original...
)zip >>
G
giggsy
New member
Zip
"Also don't forget to dither at the very end of the signal chain... "
How do you dither in Wavelab 3.0? I've used Wavelab for a while and I'm familiar with the concept of dithering but I'm just not sure how to use it. I know you do it from the master section but what type, dither bits and all that am I supposed to use?
Any ideas?
giggsy
"Also don't forget to dither at the very end of the signal chain... "
How do you dither in Wavelab 3.0? I've used Wavelab for a while and I'm familiar with the concept of dithering but I'm just not sure how to use it. I know you do it from the master section but what type, dither bits and all that am I supposed to use?
Any ideas?
giggsy
zip
New member
guhlenn
Oh REALLY????
celebs are weak
so i could take you on anyday zip!
j/k Guhlenn
so i could take you on anyday zip!
j/k Guhlenn
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P Hallin
New member
Re: Read these... 
Waaaah! I read the first one! It made me cry...
zip said:
Waaaah! I read the first one! It made me cry...
Roel
That SMART guy.
I have to agree here with Guhlenn that that blink182 album is pretty overcompressed. I listened to it in a studio, the band was mixing for brought it as a reference for the bass-sound or something (don't remember). Both me and the engineer there were directly annoyed by the overcompressed kick. It sounded pretty much like one fo those groovebox samples. A triggered kick would have had more dynamics. Gee...guhlenn said:But then you go and say that overcompressed BLINK182 music is better...
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fenix
New member
you guys are pussys when it comes to compression
zip
New member
Re: Re: Read these...
Why? Too much info or you were doing it all wrong??
so i could take you on anyday zip!
I am a legend in my own mind.....
LOL
zip >>
fenix... I've never had a compressed pussy before...is it any better??
P Hallin said:
Waaaah! I read the first one! It made me cry...
Why? Too much info or you were doing it all wrong??
so i could take you on anyday zip!
I am a legend in my own mind.....
LOL
zip >>
fenix... I've never had a compressed pussy before...is it any better??
