I need help getting a "wider" mix!

  • Thread starter Thread starter madjaymz
  • Start date Start date
M

madjaymz

New member
ok, here's the thing... i have pro tools LE and i am trying to mix some songs i have recorded for my band, we are metal i guess you could say.

my problem is that my mix is not "wide" enough. let me try to explain. using the PAZ Analyzer plugin, i could see exactly how my mix is in phase and out of phase, it also shows the volume and width between the left and right speakers. so if i had everything panned right down the middle, it would show just a solid line right in between left and right. what i am doing though, is panning 2 guitar tracks, one all the way to the left, the other all the way to the right, bass is right in the center, cymbals are 2 overheads panned 50% to the left on one side 50% to the right on the other, i do a little panning with the toms, kick and snare are in the middle, and no vocals are recorded so far.

I took a track off of a CD that has a great mix (Thrice - the artist in the ambulance) to see what it looked like under the PAZ Analyzer, that mix is about 30% wider than mine. I can hear that my guitars are not pushed apart enough, and i have no clue on how to get them sounding smooth and not cluttering up the center of my mix. What am I missing here??

ALSO, I use the L1 ultramaximizer plus limiter to try and get the volume up, but no matter how hard i try, it seams like i can't get as loud as my reference cd (thrice). i set the threshold at 4 db's and the output ceiling at -.03. I also try boosting the master fader a few db's as well. the volume i listen to CD's in my car is 38, but i need to put our recording up to like 42 to get that same volume as a normal cd. what can i do??
 
I'm just guessing but some of the stuff you are seeing in the commercial mix is probably stereo reverbs and other effects.
 
i was thinking that, but it still seams like the guitar tracks are further apart in the commercial cd i am talking about. should i try putting reverb on?
 
There are lot's of things you could do, but depending on the source, results can vary widely. Do you have a sample uploaded anywhere?
 
The commercial mixes have undoubtedly been properly mastered... Width enhancement is also becomming much more popular these days...

Also, one of the best ways to squash the stereo image is with a brickwall limiter. They're good for taming a stray peak here and there, but they're certainly not the end-all-be-all of volume tools.
 
madjaymz said:
my problem is that my mix is not "wide" enough. let me try to explain. using the PAZ Analyzer plugin, i could see exactly how my mix is in phase and out of phase, it also shows the volume and width between the left and right speakers.
Click to expand...

Before you go breaking out an M-S processor, try to narrow down the problem. If you have 2 guitars panned hard left and right, they can't go any further unless you use some kind of psychoacoustic effect (hence the name PAZ).

With everything muted but the 2 guitars what is PAZ showing? If it's not wide, it may be due to the similarity in sound between the 2 guitars and PAZ isn't picking up the difference as being from 2 separate sources. Next EQ one guitar drastically different from the other. Does PAZ show an increase in width? Things like comb filtering are also used to help give a sense of width, and was an old way of "stereoizing" mono recordings.

One way to increase the sense width other than EQ is the proper use of delay. Try this, use only one guitar track make a copy to another track and pan them both hard left and right. As you listen to both the sound will appear to be coming from the center since the energy and timing is the same between both speakers. Next add a delay to one of the tracks and start to increase this little by little. You will begin to hear a widening effect.

Read up on the Haas effect, here is one article that gives a good overview:

http://www.sonicmagician.com/articles/the_hass_effect.html

In regards to loudness, search on compression and limiting on the BBS here. Tons of threads have gone through this discussion.

Let us know your experience on the above experiments!
 
Are the guitar tracks actually two separate takes, or did you just mic in stereo?
 
you got the overheads and the gtrs backwards

you should pan the gtrs 50% right and 50% left. your over heads should be 100% right and 100% left. your stereo image is you overheads, they are the most important pan in the mix. your over heads make your mix wide. :o
 
The ass-effect ???

Am I the only one who reads

...ass effect

in the link from masteringhouse???

:D:D:D

aXel
 
volltreffer said:
Am I the only one who reads

...ass effect

in the link from masteringhouse???

:D:D:D

aXel
Click to expand...


Funny ...

I think the ass effect is a general term for things like:

weird ass effect, cheap ass effect, kick ass effect, etc.
 
Well, in CEP there is a thing in Pan/Expand in Amplification which "increaces the width", and there is a preset called "Mastering Width" which makes it about 45% wider. Not sure about such a thing in pro-tools

However, I have absolutley no idea what it actually does, but it sounds fairly good to me :) Its one of thems "magic buttons" :p
 
goldfish said:
Well, in CEP there is a thing in Pan/Expand in Amplification which "increaces the width", and there is a preset called "Mastering Width" which makes it about 45% wider. Not sure about such a thing in pro-tools

However, I have absolutley no idea what it actually does, but it sounds fairly good to me :) Its one of thems "magic buttons" :p
Click to expand...

There are plenty of plug-ins for Pro Tools that do this, but magic buttons do not come without some cost in audio quality.

Before they had magic buttons there were some recordings with great stereo imaging. How did they accomplish this? You really have to work with the basics before throwing on band-aids. The end result will be much better.
 
And also one thing that I noticed playing around with T-Racks "a mastering program" I don't know if there is really one of these out there but it has a button that you adjust to make it sound "wider" than what it is
 
mastering house's last post nailed kiddies. I keep reading about this plug and that plug and miracle software "x" and the PEZ anayalzer (does it come with a mickey mouse dispenser head?) and using the superultrahellawicked Limiter plug, etc. etc. etc., blah blah blah. To get at the heart of the matter sounds like you young whipper-snappers need to learn how to track and mix. These things did not exist back in the day. People made beautiful, full mixes without any computers, none, zilch . . . . . . . .0! Even without digital outboard! Egads! Here's a hint boys and girls: I am completely, absolutley 100% confindent I can (because I have) put together a fantastic mix (so fantastic unicorns will fly out of my ass) without any computer. Without any effects, without any compressors even by golly! All I ask for is good equipment, good musicians, a couple of good sounding rooms, lots of good eq and the ability to pan. Plus perhaps a few extra hands for fader riding, muting channels, etc. Once you make decent mixes with only these tools, the rest is icing on the cake.
 
sweetnubs said:
Plus perhaps a few extra hands for fader riding, muting channels, etc. Once you make decent mixes with only these tools, the rest is icing on the cake.
Click to expand...

Thanks for restoring my faith in this BBS sweetnubs. I remember a time when automation consisted of a grease pencil and everyone in the control room.
 
barger said:
you should pan the gtrs 50% right and 50% left. your over heads should be 100% right and 100% left. your stereo image is you overheads, they are the most important pan in the mix. your over heads make your mix wide. :o
Click to expand...


what he said
 
Well what I meant by my post is that if panning it doesn't get it as wide as you want it because I pan the hell out of my songs because I love the "wide" sound especially on the chorus and the only time I have automated faders is when I work in the studio on the mackie digital 8bus other than that I'm on the tascam 428
 
I'm really new to this, but my best/widest recording I've done yet was a live show in a bar last weekend. Used the HD24 and a wackie board. All the wideness came from guess what, the two backup vocal mics (sm 58) on either side of the stage. I had the drums close miced but they were pretty dull without these 2 mics on. WOW, imagine that. No fancy ass plugins just 2 mics, apparently in a good spot panned about 75%.
 
masteringhouse said:
Thanks for restoring my faith in this BBS sweetnubs. I remember a time when automation consisted of a grease pencil and everyone in the control room.
Click to expand...
hehe, my wife and I used to stand at the mixer doing that - we'd grab 2 handfulls of sliders and sends a piece...ah what memories :)

Great link on Haas too ! Bob Katz book talks about some of this too all you guys who picked it up - I know you're out there !
 
Old school "automation" is still my preferred method of work. I find usually band members or assistants or even the producer are more than happy to oblige. The trick is to never let the guitar player have the "guitar" faders. A lot of automation sounds crappy anyways and I've had some systems bug out and lost almost entire mixes. I think its fun to challenge yourself to see how many moves you can do before you need help. If you can throw in a few moves where you have to roll down to the other end of the consoles and make some moves then roll back that's a bad-ass bonus point. However sometimes I do find automation necessary for really complex mixes. The trick of pulling down multiple faders simultaneously with a pen is pretty cool too and will impress the clients. Yep, read up on the Haas effect kiddies- it's some basic important stuff.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top