I haven't been using compression enough.

  • Thread starter Thread starter HangDawg
  • Start date Start date
RAMI said:
Yeah, whatever works for you is cool, but I was thinking 6:1 isn't what I'd call "a little" compression. But I guess that all depends on the threshold and how much gain reduction it's producing.
Click to expand...


yeah..i should have put that i vary between 2-6:1. It obviously matters what the song needs. 6:1 can be a little SOUNDING in certain mixes..but as a number..no it's not a little for sure. I don't have a set number..in fact, every single song has a different ratio/thresh/attack/release...but I usualy dont go less then 2 or over 6. i should have put that...brain fart.
 
giraffe said:
how's glen only have one rep point (not that they mean crap)
i see him give a lot of solid, and concise advice.
Click to expand...
Giraffe, that's very kind of you to say. :) I don't know exactly how the "Rep Power" and the chicklets thingys work, but I actually have 86 rep points to date. It shifted from rep power 0 to rep power 1 after 15 points (I think) but has been at power 1 ever since.

I haven't done any tricks to try and boost my points - as you say, they tend to be a bit meaningless in this forum, unless you want the power to take and give away from someone else. Because of that, I'm sure that many look at my 86 points and chuckle. But I'm not worried about that. Though I have faltered on occasion with a couple of boneheaded posts, I'll be happy to let my posts speak for themselves.

I give the green when I can and when it's deserved, and I get them back in return when someone likes something I have to say. Beyond that, I'm not worried about a score. But the compliment is appreciated. Thanks :)

G.

P.S. If negative points were given out for my hundreds of typos and my failure to proofread before hitting the send button, I'd probably be showing 10 red chicklets by now :rolleyes:
 
if i thought that you could get more than one red chicklet, i might actually try.
 
Well I'm a complete noob, so please correct me where I'm wrong or just stupid.

Incanus and I are partners in our studio and write and perform all of our music together.

We write music with occasional extreme dynamic changes. I like to compress the kick coming in and leave everything else alone. I especially don't like to compress the snare - I won't even gate it. Incanus seems to want to compress everything. I'm exaggerating, but he thinks compression should be used sparingly on just about everything, and I am uptight about it. I've got to add that I'm just really weird about effects - I can hardly stand to use reverb at all, I just don't like the sound. Probably because I've never used a really high quality reverb. Either way, I like the song to be captured as it sounds. If the instrument and performance sound good, what is there to improve?

My attitude is that dynamics are part of the performance we're trying to capture and for that reason using compression as a matter of course is counterproductive. For instance, if I'm playing a soft passage on the piano that builds to a crescendo, I'll be damned if we're going to alter the dynamics of the passage with compression or anything else unless it's to correct a problem. I'd rather, as Mr. Albini says, put my mix in front of the mic than try to "improve" it later with this or that effect.

I know it's not a right/wrong issue - but are there others out there skeptical about such widespread utility of compression?

ITB we're using Waves stuff, and for outboard we've a TwinQ and an RNC. Is it that I just need to get to know our gear a little better?
 
Supercreep said:
I like to compress the kick coming in and leave everything else alone. I especially don't like to compress the snare - I won't even gate it.
Click to expand...

There are alot of points you make that make sense on paper, but I'll leave it to others more articulate than myself to question them in practice.

But I do have a question concerning what I quoted from you above. Why don't you like to at least gate the snare? How do you get rid of the rest of the kit going into that mic? And however you answer that, why doesn't the same answer apply to the kik? Thanx.
 
if the kit player playes ghost notes on the snare-you usually can't gate.
if they play the hi-hat to loud, you can't gate (hi-hat gets louder when gate opens)

i prittymuch always compress the snare though, some more than others...
depends on how good the player is.

IF i have a good player with a good kit, i might not even gate the toms,
the simpathetic ring can be nice sometimes.
 
giraffe said:
if the kit player playes ghost notes on the snare-you usually can't gate.
if they play the hi-hat to loud, you can't gate (hi-hat gets louder when gate opens)
Click to expand...

I have to disagree with that. If the gain going in is right, and the threshold is set right on the gate, you can play ghost notes and gate everything else out just fine. With proper mic placement, the snare mic should be close enough that a drag or ghost note opens the gate, but a high hat doesn't.
 
Yeah, but then you better well listen to the entire song and make sure you're not missing any ghost notes. This is particularly dangerous when micing the bottom of the snare as well, cause it can be easy to notice a few missing hits. And it's true, if the hats are loud and coming through strong to the snare mic, the bleed will cause a disproportionately loud hat when the gate opens.
 
corban said:
Yeah, but then you better well listen to the entire song and make sure you're not missing any ghost notes.
Click to expand...

Well, listening to the entire song goes without saying doesn't it? You better be doing that anyway, it's part of the recording and mixing process.
I'm a drummer, so if there's one thing that's important to me, it's not lmissing ghost notes or anything else when I record.
As far as hats coming through the snare mic, there are ways to remedy that. I and someone else addressed that in the "What's your best trick..." thread. I simply put something hanging off the snare mic on the high hat side (in my case a baseball cap, believe or not...works great). I can't imagine NOT gating the snare. There would be no control over the snare without affecting everything else that's leaking into it. I'd rather just go with no snare mic at all (a la John Bonham) if I was going to do that.
 
:D Well I don't know about you guys, but I usually mix a whole song based on the first ten seconds. YMMV

Kidding, obviously, you're right. I just meant doing a very meticulous listen to only the snare track with the sole purpose of comparing it gated to non-gated, because when the gate's on it can be very easy to not hear that you're not hearing something, especially if you're listening for anything else, and you can't always tell by watching the waveforms. I've done the mic isolation thing as well, with cardboard, which works nicely, although I've heard that can mess up your pickup pattern. Haven't heard a difference, so it seems like a nice suggestion.
 
Yeah, I agree...I happen to always check the snare mic, especially, isolated. Not only for the reason you mention, but also to make sure that nothing happened to sneak through the gate, like a bell ride or part of a crash. It's rare that anything ever does. But if something does get through, it's easy to get rid of it when you're working in the digital world.
 
RAMI said:
There are alot of points you make that make sense on paper, but I'll leave it to others more articulate than myself to question them in practice.

But I do have a question concerning what I quoted from you above. Why don't you like to at least gate the snare? How do you get rid of the rest of the kit going into that mic? And however you answer that, why doesn't the same answer apply to the kik? Thanx.
Click to expand...


Good question. I don't gate the snare because I like the sound of it just as it is. I don't feel like I want to isolate a particular sound since my kit is meant to be heard as one instrument. I gate my toms because they are close miked and we hardly use the close miked signal at all... OH mics do the heavy lifting and snare and kick just add a little presence to the mix. Bleed in the other mics isn't a problem as I see it, as long as the mix sounds natural in the end.

I am of the opinion that in rock music the snare is the single most important voice. I mix it louder than any other instrument - it's crucial to the song. For an example of this check out Ghost in the Machine. A gated snare dosen't sound natural to me. It could be because I'm a horses' ass though - I don't claim any skill in microphone placement or anything.
 
No man, you're no horses ass if you know the sound you're going for. If it works for you, then that's cool. I just find that you can gate a snare to block other stuff out without sounding un-natural (to my ears). I guess it depends on how much snare is coming into the overheads. I find my problem is volume. I would love to use more of the overhead snare sound, but then find that the snare just isn't loud enough, so I need to isolate my snare mic to be able to turn up, eq, add reverb, etc....to the snare without it affecting the other drums too much. I do agree with you that a kit should like one unit, though.
 
I agree with both of your approaches to an extent. Depends on the situation I guess. Usually though I don't mind the bleed much, so I don't use a gate, cause for the most part I find my snare sounds best without much eq at all, and if some of the other pieces have a bit of reverb bleed it just adds a bit of depth to them.
 
The drums should be one unit of course.

The trick is to take that gated snare and mix it back in so that the drums still sound like one unit. If you just micd up a kit and got levels set, then mixed the rest of the instruments and vocals in, the kit would sound like crap. So you have to mix it if you want to have a song that is pleasing to the average listener's ear.

This requires having the experience to fool the listener into thinking that gated snare they are hearing is pure and unprocessed. Once you can do that, your ears will have developed extremely well, and you will be hearing things in classic, "natural sounding" albums you never noticed.
 
May we hear one of your new mixes with added compression? I'm curious to hear what you're up to these days.
 
I find a lot of times gating the snare or using Sound Replacer/triggers is necessary because I can't stand the high hat/cymbal bleed's sound after I compress and EQ the snare. Especially to get some of these "modern" snare sounds with their insane 10k and 5k boosts.
 
I compress everything to an extent. Well not everything.

I dont always use it for dynamic compression but for coloration and tweaking. I dont ever do the same thing twice though. It just depends on what i think it needs. Sometimes i will completely smash the compressor because i like that sound and the nuances it brings out. 12:1 ratio smashed -6-12 decibals sometimes. Even 20:1 ratios on somethings.

However I also do alot of slight compression on vocals. On softer acoustic stuff where there are dynamics and less need for extreme coloration i usually do around 2:1 to 2.5:1 at -3-6 dbs. That smooths out the the flow of the vocals without killing the actual dynamics.

I personally think all vocals need a little bit of compression. Im sure the great singers with oustanding dynamic control can benifit from the use of a very light compression.

It doesnt really matter as long as i get what im looking for. Alot of the time i use a 20:1 ratio with a -10Dbs reduction it doesnt sound bad, or sound like im compressing. Otherwise i wouldnt use it. I think alot of it has to do with the attack and the releases. I think i fiddle around the with the attack and releases more than the gain reduction and ratio. If you nail the attack and release its much less noticeable as compression.

I usually dont like to multiband compress mixes though. Except it really can help tighten things up if the mix is a little off and your in a pinch. If i had the time and the ability to fix the mix part of it then i would, but if i cant then ill compress away with a multiband until i get the problem areas fixed.

Danny
 
Supercreep said:
Good question. I don't gate the snare because I like the sound of it just as it is. I don't feel like I want to isolate a particular sound since my kit is meant to be heard as one instrument. I gate my toms because they are close miked and we hardly use the close miked signal at all... OH mics do the heavy lifting and snare and kick just add a little presence to the mix. Bleed in the other mics isn't a problem as I see it, as long as the mix sounds natural in the end.

I am of the opinion that in rock music the snare is the single most important voice. I mix it louder than any other instrument - it's crucial to the song. For an example of this check out Ghost in the Machine. A gated snare dosen't sound natural to me. It could be because I'm a horses' ass though - I don't claim any skill in microphone placement or anything.
Click to expand...



Supercreep and I have barely used our newer outboard compressors (Joemeek twinQ and RNC). But with new mics and pres we're getting a significantly better drum sound straightway. Not that much tweeking required, really.

However, I both agree and disagree with Supercreep on this issue.
I suppose we both like what I have come to understand as the 'L.A. style' mixing. Which is to capture the sound you want in the first place, thus needing little, to no processing afterward.

But I have also found, like others have stated earlier in this thread, that compression can make things 'sit' a little better in the mix or bring out some details in individual instruments. And I like that.

Unless I am sadly mistaken, Supercreep more or less believes that the original sound is impeded upon too much when compression (or a gate) is used. I think that the good that comes from compression, at least half the time, outweighs the negative effect on the sound.

But I also believe that many things are over-compressed these days.

But in addition to that, I believe that it depends on the style of music, as has been said earlier.

It should be noted--to any who may care--that the Little Purple Circles music currently posted at nowhereradio was NOT mixed in the way Supercreep described in the quote above. (Exception: Everything you Read is virtually unprocessed.) We gated, compressed, reverbed the snare, gated and eq'ed the kick, compressed the OH's, etc. variously on each song.

Oh, yeah. One more thing: I sure as shit am not an expert. We're learning; and I want to learn, through experience, how best to use our compressors (along with everything else!) for what we're doing.
 
Incanus said:
Unless I am sadly mistaken, Supercreep more or less believes that the original sound is impeded upon too much when compression (or a gate) is used. I think that the good that comes from compression, at least half the time, outweighs the negative effect on the sound.
Click to expand...


I guess if it's used as an effect then it's all taste. But as the sole musicians and engineers what excuse have we to be altering the dynamics of our own performances with compression? Shouldn't we have just placed mics more carefully/given a better performance?

Thanks everybody for the ideas.... I don't want anyone to get the impression that I know what the hell I'm doing or that I think Incanus or anyone else is wrong about such things. Certainly most of the music I love to hear, as Incanus pointed out to me last night, has been compressed and gated and god knows what else. And the results of our recording efforts thus far aren't anything to brag about.

I guess I'm just confused about the role of compression in recording and mixing applications. I'm off to read APL's link again.

-Casey
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top