i hate my vox

drossfile

drossfile

nope
i've come to the conclusion that the thing that is most frustrating me at the moment in my recordings is the vocal sound. here's my scenario:

when i'm doing clean, melodic, soft vox a mic-->pre-->daw works fine.

but when i'm doing screaming/growling and even more emphasized, melodic rock vox the sound is just awful. i sometimes run vox through my bass pod (not ideal, i realize) just to get some compression and chorus or reverb, but that helps only marginally while introducing a crapload of noise to boot.

i almost bought a voicemaster pro today on ebay, and i've been thinking of buying one for years. i'm willing to spend upwards of $400 for it, but would prefer to keep it closer to $300 (i could've had the one today for $275 but opted out for more research).

are there any better solutions? a channel strip seems like the way to go for me, and my setup is fairly budget-oriented to begin with. i run amp models direct for guitars, i'm using 603s as OHs, etc. frankly, i've invested far more in sound sources than in the recording chain. problem is, i can't upgrade my voice--it is what it is, so bells and whistles are all i can hang from it.

i'm not gonna demo 100 different high-end pres to see if there's one that magically flatters me, and even if i was willing to, i wouldn't spend the dough on any of them anyway. $400 for a voice solution is pushing it--i'm a drummer, guitarist, bassist, "singer," and keyboardist as it is. this stuff is getting crazy expensive.

and for reference, i primarily use a cad m177 for vox. usually i cut tracks with both that and my perception 200, but the cad almost always wins. and please don't suggest a better mic. i've tried plenty, and my voice still sounds like ass.

oh, and plug-ins aren't an option either. this has to be an outboard piece of gear that gets dedicated to tape. no, i'm not analog, and it's a long story why it has to be outboard. trust me on this, please don't make me explain.

also, please bear in mind that while my singing isn't anything that'll make me famous, it isn't all that terrible either. it's the timbre of my voice that is so grating. so, there's that. :(
 
I've worked with some pretty good singers that tell me they hate their voice!

Dylan and Willie did ok without the "World's Best Voice"... it's what you do with it.

But I haven't heard too many voices I've thought were really that bad...
have you checked out Seth Riggs singing course? There's some on YouTube, it helped me a lot.

Also, nobody can do everything... some people sound best doing the soft voice thing, some screaming... so maybe it's a matter of realizing what you have and being real selective with what you try to sing.
 
IMO I think you would be better served to look at mic options here.. I don't think going to the voicemaster is going to be a fix for that, though it might still be an improvement.. I think you'd get a lot further to just A. Track lower when recording loud verses B. Try out dynamic mics when screaming verses as apposed to condensors. I'd put money on it that would be more effective then any preamp upgrade.. but that's just my two pennies. Best of luck.
 
I've heard plenty of people talk about the Wonders of FMR's RCN($199) unit. Also The RNLA($249) colors vocals in a cool way from what I've heard. You could almost buy both within your price range.

Hope this was helpful,
-Barrett
 
A big question to me would be "if you sing with no mic do you hear the same problem?"

If you do then Abbey Roads and George Martin aren't probably going to help.

It's got to sound great without any electronics, just acoustically first.

Be honest about what you can do, nobody, even your favorite singer, can sing everything.

I like Paul Simon's voice, but I can't imagine him singing "Hot Blooded" by Foriegner.
 
Dont throw good money after bad....get rid of the CAD...pick up an SM57 and give it a try.

BTW...for under 100 Behringer makes a version of a voicemaster...it is better to be dissapointed with a $80 preamp than the $400 version.
 
ok, thanks for all the responses guys, i really appreciate it. i'm gonna try to address all the additional questions here...

oh, and one other thing i should mention is that i'm using a vtb-1. i've tried using the phony "tube blend" but it's terrible (for obvious reasons) so i always use the clean path.

A big question to me would be "if you sing with no mic do you hear the same problem?"
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i don't think so, but it's impossible to say. your voice always sounds different to you in your own head than on tape. i agree that "no one can do everything" but unfortunately that's what i do. :o:D i can't change the songs i hear in my head, and a lot of them are instrumental anyway, so i'm just looking for a way to disguise the crappy timbre on certain things.

Dross, got a link for me to listen? I might have some ideas...
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my most recent stuff is what's really making me nuts (because the quality of everything else around the voice has gotten so much better), and i don't have anything posted yet. the newest track i have uploaded (windmills)i'm actually fairly happy with, but i have no idea how that happened. :confused:

the closest thing i can give you is this. check out "skin" and "bother."

what's "Just awful" ?

Thin? Girlie? Pitchy? What do you think is the problem?
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well, thin comes to mind. i can be pitchy at times, but that's not really my beef. that being said, while i really abhor auto-tune, i can't say i wouldn't use it if it was at my disposal (i think the voicemaster has some version of pitch correction, no?). either way, that's not the reason for looking into the unit. it's the timbre of my voice on tape that bothers me so much. weak, thin...idk, that's the best i can do.

Dont throw good money after bad....get rid of the CAD...pick up an SM57 and give it a try.

BTW...for under 100 Behringer makes a version of a voicemaster...it is better to be dissapointed with a $80 preamp than the $400 version.
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yeah, i tried the 57, as well as my other dynamcis. they're much worse. i'm using the best mic for the job i have. that aside, i totally agree with you on the 80 vs 400. i'll look into the behri. thanks.
 
I just listened to "Windmills" and I think you're vocals can work. Actually probably better than if you got a big time singer because you've got the feel.

What stuck out to me was that the vocals had less 15KHz to 20KHz info than some of the other stuff and I like it when the vocals has more than the background in that area.

I know you said you didn't want to hear this but I'll bet the majority of your heroes sang through U87's and I'd start there and insist on an actual Neumann brand. I would totally forget cheap mics.

Cheap amps I can handle, cheap drums no problem, cheap compressors no problem, but mics no way... it's probably the only thing I've never found cheap that worked, and I would if I could because I'm cheap!
 
dintymoore said:
I just listened to "Windmills" and I think you're vocals can work. Actually probably better than if you got a big time singer because you've got the feel.

What stuck out to me was that the vocals had less 15KHz to 20KHz info than some of the other stuff and I like it when the vocals has more than the background in that area.

I know you said you didn't want to hear this but I'll bet the majority of your heroes sang through U87's and I'd start there and insist on an actual Neumann brand. I would totally forget cheap mics.

Cheap amps I can handle, cheap drums no problem, cheap compressors no problem, but mics no way... it's probably the only thing I've never found cheap that worked, and I would if I could because I'm cheap!
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thanks for the input. i'm actually fairly pleased with the way 'windmills' came out. obviously not perfect, but i'm just a hobbyist. i have no visions of fame or any such nonsense. i do this because i love both music and recording--i just want it to sound its best within my budget. "forgetting cheap mics" is simply not an option. i'd really like to get an m-audio sputnik (i used one owned by a friend once and loved it), but i just can't justify spending that kind of dough (much less neumann dough) on yet another mic. :(

edit: interesting note on the eq spectrum. i typically like my tracks fairly "dark" sounding. i may try experimenting with eq a bit more on the vox.
 
Well you know, you could always borrow/rent a Neumann and see if that has "it". If it does then at least you'll know that its the mic.


Another note.. have you tried recording your vox in other locations? As you get louder, you'll get more reflections and room interaction which could thin it out.. I would try a closet, huge room with vaulted ceiling.. or even outside if you can. Might be worth a shot.
 
VSpaceBoy said:
Well you know, you could always borrow/rent a Neumann and see if that has "it". If it does then at least you'll know that its the mic.


Another note.. have you tried recording your vox in other locations? As you get louder, you'll get more reflections and room interaction which could thin it out.. I would try a closet, huge room with vaulted ceiling.. or even outside if you can. Might be worth a shot.
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hmmm, that's a thought. my room is heavily treated, but i can definitely see where reflections could be causing this problem--it makes sense, thanks for pointing that out. my studio is just one room. maybe i'll try making a vocal "tent" or something. excellent suggestion.

doing it outside might not be such a hot idea though--my neighbors might think me even crazier than they already do. :D
 
Okay, I listened to both recommended songs. Bother has no vocals, so it's no help. The vocal to Skin sounded phasey or affected somehow. Listening to the other songs I don't hear this issue - it's definitely a distortion of some kind, and it's not a pleasing one.

If there are no vocal effects at all, I would definitely try another mic, because it just doesn't sound very good. If there are effects, remove them all and start with a clean track.

As to your voice, you can definitely hit the notes - but I hear you searching for them a little. Nothing to be done about that particular issue except practice. Just sing everywhere. Try and find opportunities to sing loudly, pushing more air; don't try to ease into a note. I see no reason that you can't be as accomplished a singer as you want to be. Just practice and try different things. Change keys to suit your voice. Alternate tunings and capos are your friends. Use them where they help.

I'm curious to hear what you sound like, in your chest voice, pushing a lot of air. I suspect that you've got more upper-register range than you let on and that you might even surprise yourself.

Lastly, I think you're a great drummer and I liked every tune I listened to. You've definitely got a cool sound and and vibe and will sum up my thoughts about your music thusly: I like the cut of your jib.
 
I suspect it's your mic crapping out on the louder signals. Bass Pod isn't going to help with that, although I use a guitar pod if I need it to get the vocal sound I want.

Barring some really horrible technique on your part, I very nearly think you need a new mic.


If you've got a lot of gain to play with, you simply must check out the EV RE-20. It is the most forgiving mic I've ever used, it has almost no proximity effect, it can take all the SPL you can throw at it, and it is smooth and condenser like in sound. It's become my go-to mic for my vocals.

Otherwise, and especially if you're on the cheap, look for an inexpensive condenser that can take a lot of SPL - the Studio Projects B1 comes to mind. It's a multipattern mic now I think, so you could get some cool room tracks to complement your overheads too.
 
Supercreep said:
Okay, I listened to both recommended songs. Bother has no vocals, so it's no help. The vocal to Skin sounded phasey or affected somehow. Listening to the other songs I don't hear this issue - it's definitely a distortion of some kind, and it's not a pleasing one.

If there are no vocal effects at all, I would definitely try another mic, because it just doesn't sound very good. If there are effects, remove them all and start with a clean track.

As to your voice, you can definitely hit the notes - but I hear you searching for them a little. Nothing to be done about that particular issue except practice. Just sing everywhere. Try and find opportunities to sing loudly, pushing more air; don't try to ease into a note. I see no reason that you can't be as accomplished a singer as you want to be. Just practice and try different things. Change keys to suit your voice. Alternate tunings and capos are your friends. Use them where they help.

I'm curious to hear what you sound like, in your chest voice, pushing a lot of air. I suspect that you've got more upper-register range than you let on and that you might even surprise yourself.

Lastly, I think you're a great drummer and I liked every tune I listened to. You've definitely got a cool sound and and vibe and will sum up my thoughts about your music thusly: I like the cut of your jib.
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thanks so much for your kind words man. and sorry about the 2 minute cutoff. apparently soundclick is screwing me again. i changed my settings a long time ago to put the album up for free and stream full songs, but it's not happening for whatever reason. here, try this now. i assure you 'bother' has vox.

as for the "distorted" sound, what you're hearing is my hillbilly setup of going through the bass pod. i never use the same settings twice, so it's hard to say what i had going when i tracked "skin."

if you wanna hear the "chest" voice, i think i might have it going on in "windmills" (chorus) which the full version should be playable at soundclick. if not, just hit the link in my signature--it's the first song.

where upper register is concerned, stay tuned...i'll be posting a piano/drums/vox cover of radiohead's "knives out" pretty soon in the clinic. ;) but see, that's all clean, softer vocals, which a clean signal chain seem to work just fine for. i double the vocal tracks to "massage" them a bit, but no actual fx applied.

practice...yeah. :o i really should do more of that on everything. lately i've been practicing the piano daily, the drums oh...weekly or so, same for guitar. singing? hardly ever. i used to sing in the car a lot, but i listen almost exclusively to prog metal and fusion these days, so not much practice to be had there. i should get back to it--ben folds five and lazlo bane were always good car-singing groups.

"better for less $$." such as?

thanks again man. i really have a lot of respect for you--you obviously know what you're doing in the studio (i've listened to plenty of your tracks before) and i'm taking all your suggestions to heart. cheers bud!
 
Bguzaldo said:
*Off Topic* (Sorry)

What snare drum do you use!? It's a pretty cool sounding drum (on Windmills)
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that, my friend, is the highly regarded mapex black panther premium 6.5" snare. a lot of ppl around here use it, and i absolutely LOVE that snare. i have a little eq applied to that track, but no reverb, no anything else. thanks for asking! :)
 
Supercreep said:
I suspect it's your mic crapping out on the louder signals. Bass Pod isn't going to help with that, although I use a guitar pod if I need it to get the vocal sound I want.

Barring some really horrible technique on your part, I very nearly think you need a new mic.


If you've got a lot of gain to play with, you simply must check out the EV RE-20. It is the most forgiving mic I've ever used, it has almost no proximity effect, it can take all the SPL you can throw at it, and it is smooth and condenser like in sound. It's become my go-to mic for my vocals.

Otherwise, and especially if you're on the cheap, look for an inexpensive condenser that can take a lot of SPL - the Studio Projects B1 comes to mind. It's a multipattern mic now I think, so you could get some cool room tracks to complement your overheads too.
Click to expand...


i suppose it's possible i'm overloading the mic, but i didn't think so. i stand back from it a ways...and on those tracks you're hearing the perception 200 anyway, which has some outrageous spl rating (144 i think w/ pad engaged, which i do use)...

i've thought a lot of buying the sm7 or re20, but i'm worried that i'll be just as disappointed with them as i am with other dynamics on voice. :(
 
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