HR design and build thread part III - The build.

[muttley600]

I've built about six houses in the time this has taken.

apart from the sloppy crowning it looks pretty good.

Not for shits and giggles you haven't...

Done about 15 builds and 100's of set ups while you've been on vacation some of them turned out good.

Oh and final crowning and polishing is the last thing thats done. As stated above rough crown and level..

How you doing anyway?

 

[muttley600]

Wait, don't answer that I found you in prime time.

 

[muttley600]

Been waiting for a few bits before I crack on with the pickups. In the meantime I've spent a few hours this week sanding everything back and preparing for the finishing. Not much to see on that but here are a couple of shots of where we are at.

Once everything was sanded back to 600grit I gave the bindings a wash coat of half pound cup shellac polish and also put a bit of build on the walnut to seal it off. This is to stop the solid colour from leaching into the binding when it's applied. Once the binding is sealed I mask off the binding and shot a few coats of filler and a solid grey base coat ready to take the final colour and top coat. The masking is carefully removed and a further wash of shellac applied and the edge then carefully sanded to take out any ridge between the two.

Next is to re mask and shoot the colour coat. I'm on the pickups next as I have all the bits gathered together.

 

[JCH]

Nice work! The binding looks beautiful.

I've got a pickups spec sheet that I'd like to get to you. I thought I had your email, but can't seem to find it. I'd attach it, but the .pdf is too big.

 

[muttley600]

Check your PM's.

I have all the bits for the pickups and will run some questions by you once I've looked over your spec sheet. There are bound to be lots. I hope to get onto them on Monday latest.

 

[Lt. Bob]

gonna be purty!

 

[Milnoque]

I've been busy recuperating and haven't looked in in a while. I'm glad to see this moving forward. The thing looks beautiful.

 

[muttley600]

Cheers Lt. It is is getting to the purdy stage. Still a bit of a way to go though...

I had some time today as my usual Saturday schedules was crocked. I have all the parts I need to make the pickups now so I decided to do a mockup on the test bobbins I made to see how things might go and to test out my new pickup winder. I'm pleased to report that the winder works fine and will only need a few mods to get it flying. I managed to wind the p90 style bobbin with 8700 turns of AWG42 and all looked good so I pushed on and decided to assemble the thing and test it.

A collection of parts with the wound bobbin.



Screwed the pole pieces in.




Chucked the Alnico 5's on it over some shims to avoid shorting the hookup wires..



Screwed down the baseplate..



Now we have one test pickup unpotted and ready to fly..





Last thing is to check it actually has a DC resistance and what it is..



Hmmm 7.63... That seems to be close to some of the vintage p90'S I've seen? JCH, is that about what you had in mind?

I hope to make the real pickups next week once I've heard back from JCH with his spec and comments. And yes, it does work when I wire it up and hang it over some strings..

I will try and get some pics of the winding process and maybe a video of it as well and I'll chuck up some more pics of the final pickups a I will be making a few changes to the bobbins...

 

[JCH]

Nice job. That might be a bit underwound, but the coil looks a little taller than normal so that might balance things out. You'll have to give it a listen and judge it for yourself. Try it out before you pot it. If it doesn't squeal, leave it be.

 

[muttley600]

Nice job. That might be a bit underwound, but the coil looks a little taller than normal so that might balance things out. You'll have to give it a listen and judge it for yourself. Try it out before you pot it. If it doesn't squeal, leave it be.

The coil is standard height for a p90 bobbin and looking through the few notes I have for genuinely original and old p90's (about 4) that reading sits in the range at the lower end. A bit of googling tells me that a lot of the custom pickup winders shoot for higher than that. I'm not entirely sure whether to aim a bit higher or not? Nor am I entirely sure what to expect if I do... I'm not a pickup guru by any means. I've only ever rewound about a dozen and made up a few from sourced parts.

What I am sure of is that my approach to making the bobbins works but needs some slight modification in terms of which woods and I also need to think about how we are going to mount them. The bridge can be screwed down p90 fashion. What about the bridge pickup? Same thing?

The bobbins I made are from ebony and as you commented anything other than a light tension and even scatter will result on deforming the bobbin. The ebony one above has just about held shape but there is the tell tale signs of a slight crack along the grain from the stress of the wind on the lower face. Not good. I'm thinking I'm going to make them up from a timber that is less prone to "cleaving" and then veneer or laminate a top plate on them for the finish. More thought on that needed and maybe increase the thickness of the bottom flatwork.

I will pot this one eventually because I want to test out my process before committing to the final build pickups. Having said that I'm a while away from being able to test it in the guitar because I have to complete the finishing on that anyway. I'm guessing by that time I'm going to have a few pickups to choose from.

Do you have any comments on polarity and winding direction that I should stick too on this? If I'm going to wind up a few bobbins I want to get a work flow that is consistent.

 

[JCH]

The coil is standard height for a p90 bobbin and looking through the few notes I have for genuinely original and old p90's (about 4) that reading sits in the range at the lower end. A bit of googling tells me that a lot of the custom pickup winders shoot for higher than that. I'm not entirely sure whether to aim a bit higher or not? Nor am I entirely sure what to expect if I do... I'm not a pickup guru by any means. I've only ever rewound about a dozen and made up a few from sourced parts.

When I'm experimenting with a pickup I'll usually start with what is the general consensus for the specifications, and work from there. The hardest part is getting the tone you want, and being balanced between the pickups as well. Manipulating the wind count may allow you to calibrate the pickups to each other. P90's are very powerful pickups. They have a broad flat coil, and two big powerful magnets that are coupled together. They're loud. A Tel, or strat OTOH that has a tall narrow coil, with rod magnets that aren't nearly as strong, less wire, and less input from the string due to it's position closer to the bridge, it might have a hard time competing. Achieving the optimum tone from both pickups without having one of them be significantly louder than the other in this type of circumstance can be difficult to say the least.

What I am sure of is that my approach to making the bobbins works but needs some slight modification in terms of which woods and I also need to think about how we are going to mount them. The bridge can be screwed down p90 fashion. What about the bridge pickup? Same thing?

I know what you we're trying to ask there. ^ From the looks of things, that might be your only choice. There aren't many options when you're doing a blind mount. I really like the look though. It's very clean, and uncluttered

The bobbins I made are from ebony and as you commented anything other than a light tension and even scatter will result on deforming the bobbin. The ebony one above has just about held shape but there is the tell tale signs of a slight crack along the grain from the stress of the wind on the lower face. Not good. I'm thinking I'm going to make them up from a timber that is less prone to "cleaving" and then veneer or laminate a top plate on them for the finish. More thought on that needed and maybe increase the thickness of the bottom flatwork.

I've seen builders have good success using birch modeler's plywood topped with veneer for their flatwork. Save On Discount Midwest Thin Aircraft Grade Birch Plywood 12 x 24 in Sheets, .4 - 3mm Thick & More Plywood at Utrecht

I will pot this one eventually because I want to test out my process before committing to the final build pickups. Having said that I'm a while away from being able to test it in the guitar because I have to complete the finishing on that anyway. I'm guessing by that time I'm going to have a few pickups to choose from.

Don't forget the pots and capacitors. They'll have a big part in shaping your tone.

Do you have any comments on polarity and winding direction that I should stick too on this? If I'm going to wind up a few bobbins I want to get a work flow that is consistent.

Because these will be unique to this guitar, it really doesn't matter much so long as you're RWRP. I'd let the first one you've built here establish the precedent.

 

[muttley600]

When I'm experimenting with a pickup I'll usually start with what is the general consensus for the specifications, and work from there. The hardest part is getting the tone you want, and being balanced between the pickups as well. Manipulating the wind count may allow you to calibrate the pickups to each other. P90's are very powerful pickups. They have a broad flat coil, and two big powerful magnets that are coupled together. They're loud. A Tel, or strat OTOH that has a tall narrow coil, with rod magnets that aren't nearly as strong, less wire, and less input from the string due to it's position closer to the bridge, it might have a hard time competing. Achieving the optimum tone from both pickups without having one of them be significantly louder than the other in this type of circumstance can be difficult to say the least.

Yeh I got that. Thats why I'm going with your input. Although I know the general principles and theory behind pickup winding I haven't done a huge amount. I could have gone through google but as this is a HR design I thought I'd draw on your expertise..

Quick question on DC resistance and number of windings. I'm assuming from my background in physics that it's a pretty linear relationship so If I wrap another say 10% I can expect approximately the same increase in resistance up to a point? I appreciate that there is other stuff going on too..

I know what you we're trying to ask there. ^ From the looks of things, that might be your only choice. There aren't many options when you're doing a blind mount. I really like the look though. It's very clean, and uncluttered

I agree and I like it that way too on this I think. That isn't to say there are not other mounting options but that sure would be the simple answer and at present I haven't left room on the body route for covers so we are going to see them. But that s OK with me.. If we do opt for covers later I can easily increase the route size. No biggie.

I've seen builders have good success using birch modeler's plywood topped with veneer for their flatwork. Save On Discount Midwest Thin Aircraft Grade Birch Plywood 12 x 24 in Sheets, .4 - 3mm Thick & More Plywood at Utrecht

I have tons of birch play but was hoping to use something a little more elegant. I'm a wood snob remember.. I'm thinking of using something beech or maybe willow or lime. All resist cleaving very well and can be worked to a thin tolerance.. I think I need to increase the thickness of the lower flat work anyway. I went a little thinner than perhaps I should have done. What I may do is go with the ebony and reinforce the lower flatwork with veneer backing paper to stop the likely hood of it splitting. It's still a learning curve,

Because these will be unique to this guitar, it really doesn't matter much so long as you're RWRP. I'd let the first one you've built here establish the precedent.

OK mental note to self. RW/RP CLOCKWISE NORTH OUT on neck pickup....

Don't forget the pots and capacitors. They'll have a big part in shaping your tone.

Don't not yet....

 

[Lt. Bob]

Don't forget the pots and capacitors. They'll have a big part in shaping your tone.



.

I never have my volume pots turned down at all ..... always wide open and the same with tone knobs.

Making the assumption that I never use them does that still apply?
Seems like if I have them wide open they're effectively out of the circuit.

 

[JCH]

I never have my volume pots turned down at all ..... always wide open and the same with tone knobs.

I'm always surprised when I hear people say this.

Making the assumption that I never use them does that still apply?

Yes

Seems like if I have them wide open they're effectively out of the circuit.

Not entirely. Try hooking your pickup straight to the output jack if you have doubts. Anything in the circuit will alter the sound to some degree. Do you ever notice a change in tone when you switch guitar cables?

 

[Lt. Bob]

I'm always surprised when I hear people say this.

I'm always surprised that people DO use them.
I WAY prefer the sound wide open ........ except in gits that use a circuit where turning the volume down doesn't darken the tone.
And even then I still prefer the full output. And I find tone knobs to do nothing but lose the very parts of the sound I like. On my Stinnett I don't even have tone pots at all. If I were more into working on my gits these days I'd probably disconnect the tone on all my gits but that's way too much effort.
And we all know that I play enough and well enough that my choices are valid ones for me and not just lack of knowledge on my part.
It's just a different choice that works for me and that I prefer.
However, it also tends to lead me to like multichannel amps because some of the things you do with the volume and tone knobs, I do with the channel switching and/or pedals.

Do you ever notice a change in tone when you switch guitar cables?

absolutely! I have no doubts ...... you obviously know about this ..... that's why I asked.

 

[muttley600]

I always have the volume and tone pots full up as well. I use the amp to trim the tone as they are way better at it. Thats when I have a guitar with them in the first place.

 

[Lt. Bob]

I always have the volume and tone pots full up as well. I use the amp to trim the tone as they are way better at it. Thats when I have a guitar with them in the first place.

yep ..... that's me too.
Man ..... I wish we were close enough to each other to play together sometime. Bet we'd have fun.

 

[JCH]

I'm always surprised that people DO use them.
I WAY prefer the sound wide open ........ except in gits that use a circuit where turning the volume down doesn't darken the tone.
And even then I still prefer the full output. And I find tone knobs to do nothing but lose the very parts of the sound I like. On my Stinnett I don't even have tone pots at all. If I were more into working on my gits these days I'd probably disconnect the tone on all my gits but that's way too much effort.
And we all know that I play enough and well enough that my choices are valid ones for me and not just lack of knowledge on my part.
It's just a different choice that works for me and that I prefer.
However, it also tends to lead me to like multichannel amps because some of the things you do with the volume and tone knobs, I do with the channel switching and/or pedals.

Your choices are without a doubt valid. I respect them fully. The point I was trying to make is that even passively, anything in the circuit will alter the tone. I've met many players who are always full throttle on the controls. It's for sure the way to get the best picking dynamics. The subtleties of anyone's style/tone will be more apparent full on. I just don't feel that I have a full palette without them.

 

[muttley600]

Your choices are without a doubt valid. I respect them fully. The point I was trying to make is that even passively, anything in the circuit will alter the tone. I've met many players who are always full throttle on the controls. It's for sure the way to get the best picking dynamics. The subtleties of anyone's style/tone will be more apparent full on. I just don't feel that I have a full palette without them.

Yeh I get that everything to a greater or lesser extent affects what comes out the other end. I have spent years in acoustics finding that out. My reasons are that it seems to me when you use volume and tone on a guitar it's just a very crude way of taking away what us already there. Over the years I have trimmed my gigging rig down to just two trips to the car park. At the same time I seem to enjoy playing as clean as the gig will allow and that means relying on the natural tone of the guitar and amp. I just plug and play these days..

 

[muttley600]

yep ..... that's me too.
Man ..... I wish we were close enough to each other to play together sometime. Bet we'd have fun.

You never know. One day maybe... As long as we can start with Sissy Strut and you can find a drummer to handle the stabs..

Other than that a nice Blue note funk outfit like Lou Donaldson's would be nice...