masteringhouse
www.masteringhouse.com
Close your window Tom!
Close your window Tom!
Waltz Mastering
New member
; ) only till the Sox start playing again...although I was glad to see the Phillies take it in 08'
masteringhouse
www.masteringhouse.com
Yea, I'm always a fan of the underdogs regardless of the city. Last year was painful to watch.
Gizzmo0815
New member
leaningpine, you're being a bit unreasonable.
It's pretty clear that the people in the thread are trying to help you out. And they were polite about it until you made it abundantly clear that you didn't really want their opinion on your song. At which point most of them really have no reason to try and help you out anymore.
There are several people here who have a lot of experience in both mixing and mastering. You can probably figure out which ones (mostly the ones that own mastering or mixing studios, but several others who are just good at what they do). If I were you I'd place the emotions off to the side and pay attention to what they're trying to tell you.
You rounded up the comments in the thread nicely in your "overview". And unfortunately highlighted again the fact that your song has several issues with it. Some of which are attributable to mixing, and likely several that attributable to recording.
It would probably be best to start at the bottom. With the raw unmixed version and ask "How does this recording sound?". Once you're satisfied, (based on your own opinion and the input you get) that the recording is good. Mix the song and then post again "I'm happy with the recording, how does this mix sound?". You'll likely get several hundred more inputs. Lastly once you've mixed the song master it (however, I think you need to understand what the defenition of mastering is first, there's an excellent post by Fredrick in the now famous "Fala" thread that explains it) and then ask about the mastering job.
Everything I've described in the last paragraph is what's known as the "learning process". If you don't feel you need to learn anything from the people here who have (surprisingly
) politely offered their input then you probably needn't have posted asking for their opinions in the first place.And lastly, if you wanted us all to say "Wow what a fantastic presentation of your music". You could have started the post with something like this: "I'm happy with this, I don't really care what you think about it, so just tell me it sounds good."
Several people around here can sometimes be a bit overbearing, but in this case, you were given sound advice, you just didn't want to listen to it. It takes a big man to open themselves up to criticism like you did. But it takes an even bigger man to realize when someone else is right about something (even moreso when it's something as personal as your music) and use the advice to improve. Don't take it personally, take it as several people trying to help you improve. Not competitive...just everyone trying to make everyone better right?
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leaningpine
New member
I want to learn, I want to fix what's wrong. I get the feeling that people aren't even reading completely what I've written, it's almost like they're skimming through and picking out parts they want to read without reading the whole thing.
I posted the unmastered version in the MP3 mixing clinic and have gotten a couple of good responses there.
I had someone tell me the bass was too loud and the guitars sounded mushy and people say you can't tell how it's mastered unless you have the original mixdown, So i put up the mixdown and then I get jumped on because this is supposed to be in the mixing section and all I said was I wanted to know how the mastering sounded, not the mix, then i get blasted with a bunch of insults and goofing off and how I'm just a newb and I'm dumb and laughing and insulting me more.
I haven't gotten any advice! Look over the thread again and tell me what has been said besides what I've put in the last paragraph
Only after all that do I get a couple of good responses. I just wanted to know how it sounded, i would have settled for, "it's too thin" or "It's too bassy" or "It needs to be remixed" I have not in any way said screw you guys I don't like what you say so oh well...... I gave my own review of it because I felt the thread was going off topic, people were arguing about hearing a master and not hearing one, talking about things I didn't even say or taking it the wrong way.
I toy around with mastering, I'm always trying new things to see what sounds I can get from using one effect to another. I know what mastering is and I think there are WAY too many plug in's that don't do much of anything.
Here's what I did.
I did a test mix, I knew the bass was a little too loud and the guitars could come up a bit but I just made a mix, Then I did a master, I used a 31 band EQ and a/b'd it with some CD's I liked the sound of,(Boston, The Who etc) I EQ'd it to match as close as I could, put some compression and limiting and was done. It sounded close to the sound I wanted but I wanted to know what other people thought. I didn't want to know about the mix, I wanted to know what the mastering sounded like, and I didn't want to say I did the mastering because I didn't want anyone to immediately shoot me down because I'm not an accomplished mastering engineer.
I just wanted to know...........
I posted the unmastered version in the MP3 mixing clinic and have gotten a couple of good responses there.
I had someone tell me the bass was too loud and the guitars sounded mushy and people say you can't tell how it's mastered unless you have the original mixdown, So i put up the mixdown and then I get jumped on because this is supposed to be in the mixing section and all I said was I wanted to know how the mastering sounded, not the mix, then i get blasted with a bunch of insults and goofing off and how I'm just a newb and I'm dumb and laughing and insulting me more.
I haven't gotten any advice! Look over the thread again and tell me what has been said besides what I've put in the last paragraph
Only after all that do I get a couple of good responses. I just wanted to know how it sounded, i would have settled for, "it's too thin" or "It's too bassy" or "It needs to be remixed" I have not in any way said screw you guys I don't like what you say so oh well...... I gave my own review of it because I felt the thread was going off topic, people were arguing about hearing a master and not hearing one, talking about things I didn't even say or taking it the wrong way.
I toy around with mastering, I'm always trying new things to see what sounds I can get from using one effect to another. I know what mastering is and I think there are WAY too many plug in's that don't do much of anything.
Here's what I did.
I did a test mix, I knew the bass was a little too loud and the guitars could come up a bit but I just made a mix, Then I did a master, I used a 31 band EQ and a/b'd it with some CD's I liked the sound of,(Boston, The Who etc) I EQ'd it to match as close as I could, put some compression and limiting and was done. It sounded close to the sound I wanted but I wanted to know what other people thought. I didn't want to know about the mix, I wanted to know what the mastering sounded like, and I didn't want to say I did the mastering because I didn't want anyone to immediately shoot me down because I'm not an accomplished mastering engineer.
I just wanted to know...........
Gizzmo0815
New member
And I think the answer you'll get over and over is that you have no business mastering the song until the mix is finished. If you know the song has mixing issues. Fix them first before you present it to the masses. Then you will avoid the comments about the mix and we can all focus on the question you want answered. Which is how the master sounds.
The major point people were trying to make is that when there are MIXING problems (or recording problems for that matter), it's very difficult to be objective about the MASTERING. The MIXING problems will always overpower the opinions on how mastering has changed the final product. Which is why mastering should be held off until the MIX is completed.
To be blunt. There are some major issues with your song that have nothing to do with mastering. And you can't truly master a song until those issues are taken care of. And we can't truly have an opinion on what mastering will DO to your problematic mix.
The major point people were trying to make is that when there are MIXING problems (or recording problems for that matter), it's very difficult to be objective about the MASTERING. The MIXING problems will always overpower the opinions on how mastering has changed the final product. Which is why mastering should be held off until the MIX is completed.
To be blunt. There are some major issues with your song that have nothing to do with mastering. And you can't truly master a song until those issues are taken care of. And we can't truly have an opinion on what mastering will DO to your problematic mix.
masteringhouse
www.masteringhouse.com
I'm hesitant to comment on anyone's work regarding mastering, it seems self-serving since that's my gig.
Some quick tips though based on the above. Graphic EQs are seldom used in mastering, parametrics are better for shaping. By all means use some references but don't try to hammer a mix to sound exactly like another. Serve the mix at hand, correct the issues that draw focus away from the enjoyment of the track and the elements that should be most present. Also mastering is usually a comprise, if you can fix it in the mix don't try to fix it in the mastering.
Some quick tips though based on the above. Graphic EQs are seldom used in mastering, parametrics are better for shaping. By all means use some references but don't try to hammer a mix to sound exactly like another. Serve the mix at hand, correct the issues that draw focus away from the enjoyment of the track and the elements that should be most present. Also mastering is usually a comprise, if you can fix it in the mix don't try to fix it in the mastering.
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leaningpine
New member
Well, What are the problems........ I've had some feedback in the mixing forum, but if anyone wants to chime in here it's fine with me,.
Thanks masteringhouse, The reason why I'm doing the toy mastering is because I can't afford to throw down the money for a hobby. I like to try things and learn as I go along so what you've said has been helpful. I'll try the parametric.
I tell you what, I'm going to post another mix sometime and i'm going to put an A/B mix in this time now that I know. Hopefully everyone will be over this thread and we can start over again. I suppose rami has since he has helped me a bit.
I guess I have to thicken my skin to be on this board.
Thanks masteringhouse, The reason why I'm doing the toy mastering is because I can't afford to throw down the money for a hobby. I like to try things and learn as I go along so what you've said has been helpful. I'll try the parametric.
I tell you what, I'm going to post another mix sometime and i'm going to put an A/B mix in this time now that I know. Hopefully everyone will be over this thread and we can start over again. I suppose rami has since he has helped me a bit.
I guess I have to thicken my skin to be on this board.
R
RAMI
Guest
Yeah, I'm cool with you. As much as I might be one of the more aggressive people on the board, I don't take any of it too seriously, and I often end up wishing I counted to 10 before posting something. Once I get a chance to step back and realize that I might have posted too early in the morning, or that an internet argument is starting that would never start in person, I look at it this way:
If I saw a moving van pulling in next door, and saw them loading in musical gear and studio equipment, and it turned out to be Leaningpipe or anyone else on this board, I'd be thrilled that another musician is moving in next door. We'd probably end up being great friends and jamming once in a while and checking out each other's recordings, etc......We all love music here, and we're all just trying to get good at something we love, which is a cool thing to have in common.
Gizzmo0815
New member
I can only give my opinions on some of the problems I hear:
1) Intro is too bassy, back off and try to balance the vocals against the bass (ducking might be a useful technique here?)
2) When the rest of the band kicks in the vocals are very buried. It sounds very loud but the guitars are the most up front, which shouldn't be the case in a song that features vocals. The guitars are drowning out the singing. This could be for several reasons. The guitars lack definition in their EQ, so they are taking up too much of the audio spectrum. If you can find a better space for them (backing off on the bass will help). And maybe a high pass to roll off some of the low end on the guitars. Also, I would use a bit more of the stereo space and double track them to make them less up front and make room for the centered vocals. Also I would look at cutting some of the mids (usually somewhere around 500khz but that's just a place to start, not a rule) to make them sound less muddy and make room for 1) the lead/solo guitar and 2) the singer.
3) I SUSPECT (though I can't be sure in light of the above issues) that you've compressed the mix to make it louder. Which is a common faux mastering "trick". However, in doing so you've merely highlighted several of the problems I mentioned above. When you take an unbalanced mix (too heavy on bass, muddy guitars, buried vocals) and compress to make louder. All you really end up doing is making the bad parts sound louder, which makes the total sound...well...worse. Which is why the mix needs to be fixed first.
I am, however, admittedly a novice when compared to most of the others here. So perhaps they can give more specific comments/advice...but in any case, mastering isn't your issue at this point. Mixing and possibly the actual recording is...
I will say, however, that as far as amature, hobbyist artists go. I'm impressed by the song. It's not half bad and could sound quite excellent if processed better. Good job.
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leaningpine
New member
Thank you. I'm working on it right now. I'll try whatever I can and hopefully my next post of it will be better, and if it isn't, there's more work to be done!
grimtraveller
If only for a moment.....
That was kind of heartwarming.
As was this >https://homerecording.com/bbs/showthread.php?t=301275
Sometimes, these threads just seem to erupt into all out internicene warfare and casualties lay strewn all over the battlefield. We understandably get riled and defensive if it appears that we're not being taken seriously or we're being criticized because our passion is more than an extention of us, it's actually a part of us. It's like being told your child smells of piss. Our initial hurt and anger may obscure the fact that they just might smell of piss.
was actually really awful on the surface, but like alot of threads that explode into verbal violence, if one could look beyond it (extremely difficult, I know) there were some really interesting insights on both sides of the, um, debate. It was hard to read (I kept finding my teeth clenched, not realizing how tense I'd gotten !) but by the same token, it was positively gripping.
I personally don't subscribe to the notion that these are just 'words on a screen'. Words are carriers of thoughts and feelings and are important. Whether you can see or know the persons or not.
Maybe it's just me, but the standards and bar seem to be set much higher among home recordists than in pro-ville ! But I will say, for the most part, checking out the ideas, advice and opinions in the threads and listening to peoples' work has been encouraging for me and causes me to strive harder.
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masteringhouse
www.masteringhouse.com
Glad to see that this thread is turning around into a constructive one.
There have always been issues with some folks being seen as a bit arrogant or snobbish even back in the newsgroup days before forums. I don't think that it was intended to be destructive as is the case with trolls, but either a "passionate discourse" or a little tough love. It's not unnatural to feel strongly about your own work if you're passionate about it, but you have to temper that with an objective view if you intend to sell it to the public as a product or service. You also have to take the source into consideration. Some folks aren't worth the time to respond to, but that usually becomes apparent over time, no use on feeding their egos by creating 10 pages worth of attention.
There have always been issues with some folks being seen as a bit arrogant or snobbish even back in the newsgroup days before forums. I don't think that it was intended to be destructive as is the case with trolls, but either a "passionate discourse" or a little tough love. It's not unnatural to feel strongly about your own work if you're passionate about it, but you have to temper that with an objective view if you intend to sell it to the public as a product or service. You also have to take the source into consideration. Some folks aren't worth the time to respond to, but that usually becomes apparent over time, no use on feeding their egos by creating 10 pages worth of attention.
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leaningpine
New member
OK, I've got a re-re-re mix of the tune up if anyone would like to comment. Then if it's OK I'm going to toy master with it, just for fun but I'd like honest comments, because like I said, I don't have the money to send my stuff to a mastering engineer so I'd like to learn to do it myself for only my recordings. I would never dare do anyone elses
https://homerecording.com/bbs/showthread.php?p=3368876#post3368876
https://homerecording.com/bbs/showthread.php?p=3368876#post3368876
dastrick
huh???
This thread should be turned into a Lifetime movie. 
Gizzmo0815
New member
miroslav
Cosmic Cowboy
I dropped out of this thread early on as the Q&A was not getting anywhere 
, but since it's now wide open for suggestions on how you can improve things...ahhhhhh....about your comment below:
I have to say that your vocals are one of the things that bug me in that song, but I didn't say anything earlier because you were focused on "mastering" questions.
Here's the thing.
I $3k Neumann may improve your source signal, but it's not going to fix the quality of the vocal.
Autotune might.
And I'm not being mean...but that’s what I'm hearing.
In the opening/quiet section, your vocal melody really fights with the guitar arpeggios, and that lilting melody sounds out of tune in many spots.
I think you can easily fix that by adjusting the melody line a bit so it doesn't go up/down so much against the guitar's arpeggios. Sing it more straightforward rather than so wavering and lilting.
Also...on the more intense parts of the song, you have a decent voice and are generally on key...BUT...you are straining on several high notes, and it is pulling your voice sharp, and actually making it come off weak instead of strong.
That might be fixed with some simple vocal technique adjustments, as I think you have the range, you're just not using it well. Maybe pushing more from the gut instead of the throat on those high sections could help you?
Of course, you can just belt it a few times and comp the best take or maybe double up an octave lower, and that will mask the parts where you are straining.
I dunno...maybe the whole song is just one or two steps too high...but that would require you re-record everything.
, but since it's now wide open for suggestions on how you can improve things...ahhhhhh....about your comment below:I have to say that your vocals are one of the things that bug me in that song, but I didn't say anything earlier because you were focused on "mastering" questions.
Here's the thing.
I $3k Neumann may improve your source signal, but it's not going to fix the quality of the vocal.
Autotune might.
And I'm not being mean...but that’s what I'm hearing.
In the opening/quiet section, your vocal melody really fights with the guitar arpeggios, and that lilting melody sounds out of tune in many spots.
I think you can easily fix that by adjusting the melody line a bit so it doesn't go up/down so much against the guitar's arpeggios. Sing it more straightforward rather than so wavering and lilting.
Also...on the more intense parts of the song, you have a decent voice and are generally on key...BUT...you are straining on several high notes, and it is pulling your voice sharp, and actually making it come off weak instead of strong.
That might be fixed with some simple vocal technique adjustments, as I think you have the range, you're just not using it well. Maybe pushing more from the gut instead of the throat on those high sections could help you?
Of course, you can just belt it a few times and comp the best take or maybe double up an octave lower, and that will mask the parts where you are straining.
I dunno...maybe the whole song is just one or two steps too high...but that would require you re-record everything.