how would you record with 3 mics for guitar, voice, and room?

[Nola]

hi everyone how would you place mics if a living room recording if you had 3 of them and wanted to record guitar, voice, and the room all live and not have phase problems? is there a diagram or name for this technique i can look up on google okay thanks

 

[mjbphotos]

Why do you want to record the room's sound? If its a 'living room', then the room sound is not going to enhance the recorded vocal and guitar. What mics do you have? Typical would be 1 mic for vocal, another 1 or 2 for (acoustic?) guitar, placed as best as possible to get the guitar and not too much vocal bleed.

 

[TripleM]

Agree with mjb. If it's a living room, it's probably not going to sound good. And as he said, it'd be good to know what the 3 mics are.

But I'll take a stab at some advice anyway... First create a guide track, the vocal and guitar on one mic. Play to a metronome. Then record the guitar for real referencing the guide track and metronome and use whatever mic is best for a guitar. Then record the vocal for real, referencing the recorded guitar and metronome. Find a decent reverb plugin for the room sound (you can likely do better than recording the living room sound).

 

[Nola]

the mics are an ev dynamic and then two ribbons. i have a small condensor too actually i forgot i had that so i have four mics. the reason i wanted to record the room was just for a sense of space or ambiance instead of using fake reverb, but do you think fake reverb would sound better than a bad room?

my big concern is how to set them up without getting phase. it would be normal to have some bleed from each mic right? maybe with the figure 8 there is a way to minimize that. those condensors are so sensitive though i know it will pick up voice if i use it on guitar.

 

[mjbphotos]

If you try to record vocal and guitar at same time there is going to be bleed. You can minimize it with good mic placement. Unless you have some kind of magic living room, a reverb plug-in is going to sound better, be more controlable and offer no phase issues.

 

[mixsit]

'Rule 1 (they're not rules per say, common known guide lines..
1 'Room/ambiance mics that are placed back far enough to have primarily the random 'reverb and reflections- less direct sound, aren't a source of phase problems.
2 The obnoxious phase problems are from out of time direct sounds.
3 Record the close mics as a coherent stereo pair, = zero out of time arrivals.
4 Or record 1 mic voice 1 mic inst- accept the bleed embrace the phase effects.
5 Use your fig-8's one per, but put each's null aimed at the other's source direction to minimize the bleed in each of the mics.

..6 of course, overdub.

add.. Regarding number five- This works much better as the distance between the voice and guitar is farthest- I.e standing, guitar slung lower. Sitting, 'hunched over the guitar... 'Fa get about it.

 

[Jake_JW]

2 ribbons? Both figure of 8?

Use your fig-8's one per, but put each's null aimed at the other's source direction to minimize the bleed in each of the mics.

+1, works a treat.

 

[Nola]

'Rule 1 (they're not rules per say, common known guide lines..
1 'Room/ambiance mics that are placed back far enough to have primarily the random 'reverb and reflections- less direct sound, aren't a source of phase problems.
2 The obnoxious phase problems are from out of time direct sounds.
3 Record the close mics as a coherent stereo pair, = zero out of time arrivals.
4 Or record 1 mic voice 1 mic inst- accept the bleed embrace the phase effects.
5 Use your fig-8's one per, but put each's null aimed at the other's source direction to minimize the bleed in each of the mics.

..6 of course, overdub.

add.. Regarding number five- This works much better as the distance between the voice and guitar is farthest- I.e standing, guitar slung lower. Sitting, 'hunched over the guitar... 'Fa get about it.

thanks for helping this is good information. i forgot to mention, which was stupid (sorry), that i am playing the guitar and my friend would be singing along at the same time, so it's two people in the room. would the same rules apply?

for now based on everything i read i am thinking i should use the figure 8s and not the condensor mics, put one on my guitar, one on my friend's voice, and use the null areas to minimize bleed. is that right? should i make my friend and i far apart or closer? is there an ideal distance? also, if there are two of us, does that change any thoughts on micing the room vs using reverb later? thanks guys

 

[ecc83]

Room sound? Ah! Back in the wonderful (not!) days of physical editing we used to "capture" a minute or so of "silent" room so that it could be slotted in. Blank leader or even BETape sticks out like the proverbial sore thumb.

Fake reverb? There was only the EMT plate. never got within 70 miles of one o dem!

BOF signing off.

Dave.

 

[mixsit]

thanks for helping this is good information. i forgot to mention, which was stupid (sorry), that i am playing the guitar and my friend would be singing along at the same time, so it's two people in the room. would the same rules apply?

for now based on everything i read i am thinking i should use the figure 8s and not the condensor mics, put one on my guitar, one on my friend's voice, and use the null areas to minimize bleed. is that right? should i make my friend and i far apart or closer? is there an ideal distance? also, if there are two of us, does that change any thoughts on micing the room vs using reverb later? thanks guys

That changes things a bit doesn't it. The dual fig-8 thing was suggested as something available to get some isolation on a single player singer. Now you're back to the normal situation, the default (starting point), is pick the best mic - and placements for the tones you like. 'Phase between separate players mics, bleed etc become less of a concern as the distances between them -if adequate, makes the effect of the cross bleed lower in level! The 3:1 rule' suggests cross bleed below around nine db or so below the primary signals is enough to make the out of time effects not audible.
Pay attention to your mic patterns, pick for tone, listen as you go.

As to reverb? If and when your one room tone beats a $50 Vallhalla's 'ten great rooms? (..just an example
Go for it.

 

[mixsit]

Since the nature of your questions, some of which getting the cart before the horse' a quick add..
The dual fig-8's is (generally) a compromise; Mic type, and placement tilted to isolation, not optimum tone.
Fig-8's are have the most proximity effect of all patterns. Again compromising close placement for isolation, vs placement for best tone.
Ribbon fig-8's.. A double whammy; Are a very warm mic to start, that likes a bit of distance for balanced tone, plus up close to a mouth- better have a pop screen with at least a few inches from the screen to the mic. Your other mics likely at least start out brighter.