How would you record these drums???

[theodd]

Hey guys,

My band has been collecting recoridng gear for the past few months in order to record an album this fall. Since most of our gear is new to us we wanted to do a test run song before we start the sessions for the actual album. We'll record, mix and master it outselves. The final product will be a posting on our website (and here of course).

Here's what I'm looking for in this post: I'll post the list of gear we have and you guys tell us how you would engineer the first step of the process: Tracking of the drums. I want to know what mics you would use where, how you would position them. How many mics would you use. I also want to know if you think there is anything else we need that could significantly improve the quality of the project.

Here's what I'm not looking for in this post: "Presonus sucks!" "Dude, you need to buy $5k converters (or anything super expensive) before you do anything." We are trying to do this on a budget. We won't have jobs during the actual recording process so all $$$ will go to our stomaches.

I think this post could help a lot of folks get ideas for their own rigs. Try to use only the gear I list below. It might be limiting but I think it's a good rig and I'm really trying to get the best sound for my buck you know?

Computer:
Dual 2.0 G5 w/1.0 GB RAM
120 GB Hard drive specifically for audio
Protools 6.X

Sound Card:
Digi 002

Ouboard Gear:
2 FMR RNCs
Presonus Digimax
Dan Alexander Neve Clone Pres (2 channel)

Mics:
AKG C451 Stereo Pair
AKG C1000
AKG D112
Sennhieser 422 (2)
SM57 (2)
SM58
SM58 Beta
Sennhieser 3609 (2)
Rode NTK
Rode NT4 (stereo)

Possible Purchases:
SM81
EV RE20

The Kit:
Straight up rock kit with two toms (floor tom & rack tom).

That's it. How would you guys record these drums? I think I know how I would do it but I'd like to have a few options and go with what sounds best. Also keep in mind we are doing this recording in a 1000 square attic where all the walls come to a point in the middle (think lots of triangles) and no 90 degree walls. It's a huge space but I have no recorded in it before. It's my bedroom.

Let's have it!!!

 

[dirtythermos]

d112 on kick, 57 on snare, 451s as overheads.

Maybe put another 57 or the c1000 on the hat.

 

[theodd]

No room? I think probably 50% of the drum sound on our last recording came from the room mic. Granted, we recorded in a huge acoustically treated recital hall, but the room made the kit sound fn huge!!!

In any case, I was thinking NT4 in the room somewhere? Thoughts...

 

[dirtythermos]

I don't usually like my drums to sound huge. I guess it depends on the music you're going to do.

 

[Lance135]

I think it's a great rig you have there.

Anyway, D112 on the kick. I've had decent success with with the mic inside the drum with the front head on, a foam pillow, and the microphone pointing right at the beater. The main reason I do this is for the great isolation as you tend to eq the kick track more than any others, and it will make using a gate much easier.

SM57 sounds good on snare, but doesn't reject sounds from the side very well. You'll hear lots of hihat. I don't know which of your other microphones would work better, perhaps the Beta 57, as it's a supercardioid.

Overheads: C451's. Try to get these as high in the air as possible (maybe six feet or more!), which probably won't be very high in your little pyrimad. I'm not sure how the ceiling will effect the sound, but it may be interesting. You want to get the microphones equidistant from both the ride cymbal and the hihat. Use a tape measure or a piece of string to measure the distance between the hihat and the microphone, then the ride cymbal and the microphone, and match the distance. A lot of engineers do this to mimimize weird "phasy" sounds on cymbals. Of course, maybe you like the weird phasy sounds...

Experiment with microphone placement and drum tuning/muffling a lot. Try loosening and tightening the snare. It makes such a difference if you have great sounds to work with, and no problems that you'll have to "fix in the mix".

For example, I had the kick drum microphone move out of position during tracking last night, and it required a lot of eq'ing to fix it. I may have to replace the kick track with a drum sample. I also had the overheads too low on one track and it picked up way too much kick, and unfortunately, it wasn't an amazing kick sound from directly above the drum. If I was an engineer, I would probably be looking for a new job right now.

It sounds like these are the type of ideas you're looking for. The main thing is to keep it fun and relaxed at all times. The mood will really come across in your music.

 

[Track Rat]

I'd put the 451's on the overheads. I prefer X-Y overheads as opposed to wide spacing (minimal phase problems) but that's a matter of taste I suppose. I'd put the C-1000 on the snare, out about 2-3" pointed at the center with the hi hat in the null point of the pattern (I use the little gizmo that plugs over the capsule that makes it hypercardiod). I'd put the D-112 inside the kick (or hold out for the RE-20 here). I'd put the Sennheisers on the toms. I'd take the NTK and set it out in front of the kit about 3' at the height of the top of the kick shell pointed straight at the kit. That's seven tracks of drums.

 

[theodd]

Nice thanks guys. Here's what I was thinking:

C451s as overheads. Not really much of a choice hear. I haven't decided on the pattern but I will try out a few techniques to see what sounds good in this weird shapped room. 422s on the toms. D112 in the kick. Now, I'm either thinking C1000 on the hats...or nothing on the hats. I haven't decided yet. I hate dealing with a loud hihat that you cant turn down because of bleeding when you get to the mixing stage. Then I'm thinking the rode NT5 placed somewhere in the room. Since the shape of this room is very strange, I'm going to really expiriment with this one. The only other thing I'm on the fence about is using the NTK as a second kick mic in front of the kit. Hmmmmm....

Ah, but you guys didn't say anything about pres. I was thinking running the kick and snare through the Dan Alexander and then through the RNCs.

Should I compress before the "tape"? I have never one this before. I've always recorded totally un-affected sounds to tape and dealth with compression later on.

 

[guhlenn]

"Dude, you need to buy $5k converters "

That's what you get when you ask someone like fletcher.

I would not put a room mic in. But hey, my drum sound is crappy anyway..., (my room sucked when i tracked them)

What is your room like?

 

[theodd]

No idea yet. The best way to think about the shape of it is to think of it as more of a pyramid. I'm pretty excite to see what stuff sounds like in it. Could be cool or it could totally suck.

Hey, while you guys are here, does anyone know a cheap place I can get a good 16 channel snake...as in with the box of XLR connectors on one end and the other end plugged into my pro tool stuff?

 

[dirtythermos]

Hey, while you guys are here, does anyone know a cheap place I can get a good 16 channel snake...as in with the box of XLR connectors on one end and the other end plugged into my pro tool stuff?

These guys have snakes, made with Canare cable:
http://store.haveinc.com/Ebus30/Products/Default.asp?MyPage=Snakes

 

[ecktronic]

Sounds interesting with the pyramid room. I would do as you said with the mics ,except from the mic at the front of the kik. I would put either a 57 or 58 right at the beater inside the kik drum pointing the beater. And have the d112 outside the kik drum maybe a few inches outside the kik drum. Good idea to keep the overheads as high as possible and maybe use a small amount of gain on the channel recording to so as not to get too much spillage. But i suppose that bottom and mid ranges can be cut off completely to counter act spilage.
When mixing the drums get a rough sound you like for each drum individually and then play all the drum tracks together to fine tune each drum so they work with each other. I mean you might never get a decent sounding kik drum when played on its own, but add the rest of the tracks in and it might sound amazing. And vice versa.

 

[theodd]

Thanks Ecktronic,

I'll def try your idea with the kick drum. I'll also expiriment with the height of the overheads. Not sure why but that's something I don't think we have ever played with. And I feel like they have always been pretty low too. Hmmmmm.....

 

[guhlenn]

did the sm57 at beater thing and it totally sucked. Not saying it doesn't work for you, but sure as hello sounded like shit ( a little like "twap twap" LOL, not kidding) when i did it.

 

[chessrock]

Try focusing as much as you can on getting the kit to sound the way it needs to sound, in the room, before you point anything at it.


Micing technicque is a much smaller and less significant piece of the overall puzzle, in my not-as-humble-as-many-would-prefer opinion.

Obviously, having a smart drummer (or even someone who can serve as a drum tech) who knows how to tighten/loosen and tune a kit the right way is a bonus. Having a great kit to start with is important, although not entirely necessary if you have places nearby that you can rent from. Get the best cymbals you can, obviously. Think light, dark, quiet, shorter decay. Kustom K's, Dark & Crisp . . . that sort of thing.

Using the right cymbals is actually higher on my scale of importance than using the right mics. Give me a great-sounding kit with smooth cymbals and a bunch of bad mics any day, and let's make some music!

 

[wesley tanner]

chess and eck, I agree. I'm still so stoked about the porkpie kit I just did some recording with... we spent what seemed like forever making baffles right and getting the kit in a great place and tuned before we even brought out the mics... brand newish heads and a low tuning gave us what we were looking for...

57 on the kick with the 112 for roundness can shure be gud... with the overheads close like you said you've done before, you could even try throwing the c1000 on the HH and reverse the phase (after finding the sweet spot) to take out some of the hat, depending on the sound you like, again of course... (just trying for ideas that weren't said)

you might think of picking up the ev so you can move the d112 to the floor for a HUGE sound (works great if you do some riding on the floor tom...)

my ramblin's are dun

 

[guhlenn]

"you might think of picking up the ev so you can move the d112 to the floor for a HUGE sound (works great if you do some riding on the floor tom...)"

Coudl you specify what you mean here? I'm looking for "bigger than life" drumsound. Especially toms and kick.

 

[mapexdrums]

Um... Maybe.. a PZM microphone if you can find one.