How to spend money...

[G-Jay]

I think we need to decide how far "pro" extends.
Are we talking multi-million-dollar pro studio...or pro project studio?

You can get a solid (maybe not the most expensive, top-of-the-line) 8-channel A/D/A box for $2k-ish...a couple of really good 4-channel preamps for about $2k-ish each...
...that's $6k-$7k so far...
...and for the other $3k-$4k...one high-end vocal mic and a few workhorse mics.
That's $10k...and that stuff will be useable for many recording sessions.

Plus...if you shop used you can stretch it even further. I check out eBay prices on everything from guitars to amps to mics to preamps to consoles almost every single day, so I know how prices are generally going...

Buying recording gear is easy. The question is does he have a great sounding acoustic space available to track in? IMHO it would be quite silly to try tracking drums and a horn section in an apartment regardless of what recording equipment has been bought.

A pro studio lives or dies by the quality of its live room. Most studios also offer a range of vintage and modern amps and instruments which are available on sessions - this gives you a huge palette of sounds to work with for example changing the snare drum for a few tracks, using a different tube amp for the guitar, maybe a grand piano or Hammond Organ too.

You seem really caught up in recording gear Miroslav, but in my experience it's the players, instruments, and acoustic space that really make a recording - especially one which is aiming for an 'old skool' vibe.

 

[miroslav]

It's got nothing to do with being "really caught up in recording gear". Last time I checked, that's what most studios use, recording gear, often lots of it in the pro world.

Thing is...if you read his original post...he's already done recording in his own studio space and then just had it mixed/mastered outside. I listened to his stuff, its well done and sounds good...which means he WAS able to capture good sound in his studio space...
…so that question is answered.
Also, he found the process *a lot of fun*...so that means it wasn't difficult/frustrating for him to do the tracking in his studio space.
Right there, you have some important aspects of recording already covered.

I dunno...call me "really caught up in recording gear"...but I wouldn’t be too quick to run out and drop $8k-$10k just to try and repeat that same process and to try and have that same experience and result in some other studio space.
Not saying it can’t be a good thing, but I see much better long-term potential in expanding on what is already there and making the most out of the $$$...unless of course it's no problem to keep churning out $$$ for future outside recording sessions.
And you know...there HAVE been cases of bands NOT getting what they expected (I mean that negatively) when going to a "pro studio". So just 'cuz some studio is going to take your $$$...is there some kind of "guarantee"?

But like I said earlier...if the OP just wants to be a musician and NOT bother with the engineering process (which doesn't seem to be the case), then by all means, go to an outside studio and just focus on the performance.

 

[G-Jay]

It's got nothing to do with being "really caught up in recording gear". Last time I checked, that's what most studios use, recording gear, often lots of it in the pro world.

Recording gear is important to a studio of course, but a studio isn't simply an equipment list. The room(s), skills of the engineers, and instruments/amps available are a big part (perhaps bigger part) of the studio too. Let's face it, the high end recording gear is great for accurately capturing sound. The sound has to be worth capturing accurately in the first place and that takes good instruments, and good acoustics.

If the OP is keen to do it himself (and who could blame him, it would be great fun) then I would advise him to find a really great acoustic space and make good use of room mics as well as close mics.

Thing is...if you read his original post...he's already done recording in his own studio space and then just had it mixed/mastered outside. I listened to his stuff, its well done and sounds good...which means he WAS able to capture good sound in his studio space...
…so that question is answered.

I also listened to it (great recordings btw OP) but I didn't hear much in the way of drums, dixieland horn sections, or motown meets jazz. Recording those things, especially a rhythm section together has different requirements to tracking an acoustic guitar and vocal.

I dunno...call me "really caught up in recording gear"...but I wouldn’t be too quick to run out and drop $8k-$10k just to try and repeat that same process and to try and have that same experience and result in some other studio space.

If he has the songs ready to go, and his players have the parts down it could be tracked in a week (maybe less). You can get a great studio for a week for WAY less than $10K - probably less than $2K if he gets a deal.

I'd say drop 2-3k on the recording/mixing/mastering and if you really want to spend 10k, spend the rest on promotion and advertising.

 

[miroslav]

I dunno...$2k for a week's worth of tracking...???...maybe in a smaller studio, but that might only be a slight cut above what he's able to already do on his own?
Sounded to me like he was considering a high-end facility...and that's going to be more than $2k for a week, not to mention the session players, not to mention the mixing and finally the mastering, plus any promo/marketing costs.
Yup...that will chew up his budget.

But the key to the right answer has to do with what the OP has in mind for the long-term, and will he have more $$$ to spend down the road if he wants/needs to do another project, or is this going to be a single, all-or-nothing shot...???
He hasn't really stated any of that yet.

Me...I just don't see good odds in the all-or-nothing approach unless you are already a well established local/regional artist and all you need is a kick-ass album to present to a record co and they'll take it from there.
So…I kinda like the “investment” approach…which means build up your studio and you can play/record for a long time at minimal cost later on.
Also…you really don’t need to track in a million dollar room to get good results…that’s been proven over and over…but it doesn’t hurt.

 

[Todzilla]

I think we need to decide how far "pro" extends.
Are we talking multi-million-dollar pro studio...or pro project studio?

You can get a solid (maybe not the most expensive, top-of-the-line) 8-channel A/D/A box for $2k-ish...a couple of really good 4-channel preamps for about $2k-ish each...
...that's $6k-$7k so far...
...and for the other $3k-$4k...one high-end vocal mic and a few workhorse mics.
That's $10k...and that stuff will be useable for many recording sessions.

Plus...if you shop used you can stretch it even further. I check out eBay prices on everything from guitars to amps to mics to preamps to consoles almost every single day, so I know how prices are generally going...

I'd up the mic budget a bit, but I think you're on target. I'm thinking Aurora Lynx 8 w 2 API 3124s, that alone is near $8K.

 

[miroslav]

Yeah...I was thinking about the Aurora too (but there are a few others that would fit in), and while the API pres would certainly be KILLER, I think there's even some other brands/models out there that are a bit more affordable, yet still exceptional.

And like I mentioned...shopping used is NOT a bad way to go, you can REALLY stretch your $$$... I've done it many times. right now there are lots of people and also studios selling off excess gear...'cuz they need money.
With all the buyer protection options on eBay/PayPal, as long as you find good sellers (and IMO most are, or try to be)...it's not a major risk.
Plus, you an also buy used from actual brick-n-mortar music stores or online music stores (many now also sell on eBay) if you're afraid of the individual eBay sellers...though I've not ever had any major issues.

I honestly think he can get a lot of good gear and cover his needs with $10k.

 

[Chibi Nappa]

This discussion is kind of odd. If the singular goal is to make the best album, there is no choice at all but to hit a studio. Yeah, you don't get gear you can keep. The goal wasn't to build a studio. The goal was to make an album. Yeah, your time in the studio is a one-time experience. But the end recording is forever. Yeah, you can buy nice converters and mics and whatnot for $10,000. But rooms cost hundreds of thousands and make a much bigger difference to the sound. Experience and ears to use it all costs decades of time and makes the biggest difference of all. You guys say since he had fun recording at home he should roll with that. That's sorta'...selfish. The end recording shouldn't suffer because the artist put fun above results.

Again, I don't see how it is even a choice.

...unless the primary goal is to build a home studio and grow as an engineer (a noble goal, but a totally different goal). In that case be fully aware that the recording will suffer (not saying it won't be great! I'm saying it would have been better).

 

[grimtraveller]

Curiously silent........on the subject of cheese.

Hi folks,

feel free to ask clarifying questions and share any thoughts you might have.

I have a question Wendell.
What is your heart telling you ? What's your gut feeling ? What do you actually desire to do ? If there was no HR to help give you pointers, what would you do in this instance ? Or if someone came to you with exactly the same scenario, what would you advise them ?
That was 5 questions. That was better than 'buy one, get one free'.

 

[miroslav]

The OP did ask...
"Could I get away with doing a lot of it at home and hiring a really great mix engineer to make it sound good at the end of the process?"
...so I don't see that it's so obvious that the only answer is "No, go to an outside studio".

And I disagree that million dollar rooms are always a necessity for good results, not to mention that just because you are IN a million dollar room doesn't mean you always want the sound of that room in every track/recording. That's why a lot of the big-name arti$t$ sometimes bounce from studio to studio, so they can get different flavors for different things...but that gets very expensive.
If your space is decent, you can get great recordings...if it is "so-so" or not perfect for some things...you simply take the room out of the equation and then add your room ambience during the mix process.

Also, "fun" and "good results" certainly CAN and SHOULD go hand-in-hand, and I think the OP has already proven that with his current album project which he tracked in his own studio space.
There are MANY guys (even here on these forums ) getting great results in their non-million dollar studios...and also having a lot of fun doing it.
Some even run successful commercial studios out of their less-than-million-dollar spaces.

The home project studio certianly CAN be a great place to record....with the right gear.

 

[SouthSIDE Glen]

If the singular goal is to make the best album, there is no choice at all but to hit a studio.

Bingo.

I'd add that a trustworthy manager or producer might be an option for the first step; they have the knowledge and connections to pick the right studio and engineer for your style of music - The Dungeon of Noise Studios is probably not the best choice to go to cut a piano jazz album - and for your budget, not to mention be honest about what you may need to do first before you step into the studio.

G.

 

[XLR]

Yeah, your time in the studio is a one-time experience. But the end recording is forever...

Also forever is the impact the pro studio experience can have on one's future judgment relating to their own home studio work - about gear, recording techniques, room acoustics, what is and isn't good quality sound, etc.

 

[miroslav]

Yeah...like I mentioned early on, recording in a world-class facility could be a great, even if only one-time, life experience.

It all comes down to budget (again) and long-term goals.

While most world-class studios would have to totally *screw-up* to give you a crappy *audio* end-product...the end-product is not always/only just about the sonic quality that one gets from a world class environment.
It could sound great audio-wise, yet fall short as a total package...so you need to really have your shit together going in, if you only have $XX funds on that once-in-a-lifetime world class experience, otherwise, once the money is spent, there's no going back in to re-track/re-mix...etc.
There ARE times when people are not totally happy with what they got out of their pro studio time (regardless of where the fault lies).

A high quality project studio can offer a lot more flexibility to the artist if it is needed in order to make the end-product as best as possible.
What more and more people are doing who need some "world class juice" but who also want more flexibility and ability to do some things themselves...
...is some combination of both.
They’ll either do some critical tracking in a pro facility, and the rest in their home studio, and then either mix at home or go back out for mixing...or vice versa....etc.
That allows you to spend your money more efficiently (some on your home studio upgrades and some on pro studio time) while still squeezing the most out of your project as a whole.

 

[XLR]

You guys do realize don't you that a poster with 1 post total, two links to his music, and a sweeping general question about "how do I record", is probably just pimping himself.

 

[miroslav]

Maybe you are right...?

But then, aren't we all forum sluts!

 

[XLR]

Well actually, no .

 

[Harvey Gerst]

I think that part of the problem is the scope of this project as compared to his previous album.

He wants a jazz/Motown vibe, using a number of instruments he's never recorded before. What mics for the cello, violin, and accordion? Ribbons, dynamics, or condensers? Mic placements? A horn section? Does he know the old Motown trick of having the horns players facing a wall, with the mics behind the horns? Does he know about KM86's?

In the best of circumstances, it's gonna be a difficult recording session - if he doesn't have someone experienced running things. This is a pretty ambitious project for a home studio, with a limited selection of equipment.

Other than using a professional studio (and assuming he has a decent space and equipment), the OP could hire a good engineer and take the role of executive producer, telling the engineer what he wants, and leaving it to the engineer to get the desired sound.

 

[miroslav]

Well actually, no .

C'mon now...no need to be prissy…you get around as much as anyone!

 

[miroslav]

This is a pretty ambitious project for a home studio, with a limited selection of equipment.

You are right Harvey...it's a major project.

I think though in the end it's up to the individual to decide how much they feel they want to tackle, and how much they need to farm out.
I'm seeing things from my own position and how I would approach it, and maybe having already done a bunch of "solo artist" stuff on my own and having a fairly well appointed studio space, and the fact that I like to work r-e-a-l slow and take a lot of time, I tend to favor the DIY approach...
...other's have their views...all equally valid.
I do sense that the OP was kinda looking for a lot of debate and ideas to help him decide...so we're giving him plenty of that!

 

[XLR]

lol@miroslav telling Harvey Gerst whether he's right or not.

 

[SouthSIDE Glen]

WARNING: Food Analogy Time agian....

If a man is hungry and wants a fine decent-quality meal right away, one does not advise him to go out and buy a kitchen and learn how to cook. Nor do they teach them how to fish. They send them to the restaurant that fits their tastes and budget the best.

The OP referred to himself as

a singer-songwriter who...wants to try to pursue a career in music.
...
So I've decided to record another album this year and try to make something that is a much better product than my last album, and hopefully a step toward a career as a professional singer/songwriter/recording artist.

Nowhere in there is there any reference whatsoever to wanting to learn how to become a recording engineer. The guy emphasized he is a singer/songwriter/artist who wants to make a profession out of doing that and wants to head down that path by making an album of much higher quality than his last effort, and do so this year.

There is only one best answer to that situation; hire someone who already knows that end of it to get you to your goal. Having to spend the time and effort to learn how to run your own home studio is just extraneous wheel spinning which actually gets one no closer to their goal.

Concentrate on the singing/songwriting and let the experts worry about the technical and the business baggage, because they can do it better, faster and cheaper to you than you can ever do it yourself. And since that side baggage is not your goal, it's all just noise getting in the way of your own signal.

Maybe later on, after your main career path is actually rolling to some degree, you can take some side time to get your Boy Scout badge in recording engineering, if you're interested. But for now, keep your eye on the prize and surround yourself with the right people to help you get there.

G.