How to record guitar and vocals without vocals mic picking up guitar

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Beatlesfan1225

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Hello everyone!

So, this is my first post here. I have a question I've been itching to ask for a long time now, since I've been struggling with it during my recording for some time.
I normally start recording a song with acoustic guitar and vocals, and then I push the acoustic guitar back a bit, and start layering over it with the rest of the instruments. However, an issue is presented when the background of the vocal track has the acoustic guitar in it. Whether you're using a dynamic or condenser mic, (I'm using a dynamic for vocals - Audix Om2) I've found it nearly impossible not to have a vocal mic pick up some of the guitar.

Recording the two separately isn't really an option for my playing style - So, I ask you, how would you go about recording in a situation like this? I'd like to be able to record vocals and acoustic guitar at the same time, with two different mics, but have the sound of the vocals isolated to the vocals track, and the guitar isolated to it's track. In other words, I don't want the mics picking up the other item.

Any suggestions?
 
This is where you do the best you can. You're not going to get 100% isolation.
 
Massive Master said:
This is where you do the best you can. You're not going to get 100% isolation.
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Is there a way to set up the mics though, in terms of placement or what have you, that may reduce the amount of vocals the guitar mic pics up, or the guitar the vocal mic picks up?
 
Beatlesfan1225 said:
Recording the two separately isn't really an option for my playing style..

Any suggestions?
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Overcome this crippling constraint. What do you mean by "isn't really an option?" Why isn't it really an option?
 
Just record the guitar first. I don't get why you have to sing at the same time...
 
You could try recording a scratch track with both, then go back and record each separately when you've got something to follow along to. You really do need to stop saying you can't, though, and just learn how to do it. Or else just record with a mono omni or stereo pair and mix via performance.
 
ashcat_lt said:
You could try recording a scratch track with both, then go back and record each separately when you've got something to follow along to.
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This is what I do, especially if it is a lyric driven song.
 
Armistice said:
Overcome this crippling constraint. What do you mean by "isn't really an option?" Why isn't it really an option?
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I'm recording fast, finger picked, claw style folk songs. The vocals and the finger picked guitar go hand in hand, and it's difficult to remove one from the other, because the vocals flow with the guitar, and vis versa. The guitar is also slightly different in each take, as are the vocals, given the style in which it's played, so separating them doesn't make much sense. It would be like if you listened to Dylan's "Freewheelin" - There's no way they could/would have made that record recording Dylan's vocals and guitar separate. They flow together as one in this style.
 
Beatlesfan1225 said:
I'm recording fast, finger picked, claw style folk songs. The vocals and the finger picked guitar go hand in hand, and it's difficult to remove one from the other, because the vocals flow with the guitar, and vis versa. The guitar is also slightly different in each take, as are the vocals, given the style in which it's played, so separating them doesn't make much sense. It would be like if you listened to Dylan's "Freewheelin" - There's no way they could/would have made that record recording Dylan's vocals and guitar separate. They flow together as one in this style.
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In that case it's a harm minimisation exercise... you could try a figure 8 pattern perhaps on a single mic, or use dynamic cardioid with, as far as is possible given what you're doing, the null area pointed towards the other sound source... but you should certainly get less bleed with dynamics..
 
Armistice said:
In that case it's a harm minimisation exercise... you could try a figure 8 pattern perhaps on a single mic, or use dynamic cardioid with, as far as is possible given what you're doing, the null area pointed towards the other sound source... but you should certainly get less bleed with dynamics..
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This is what I would suggest. Use a figure 8 on the guitar with the null pointing at the vocalist. Use a cardioid mic for the vocals, in close.
 
Beatlesfan1225 said:
I'm recording fast, finger picked, claw style folk songs. The vocals and the finger picked guitar go hand in hand, and it's difficult to remove one from the other, because the vocals flow with the guitar, and vis versa. The guitar is also slightly different in each take, as are the vocals, given the style in which it's played, so separating them doesn't make much sense. It would be like if you listened to Dylan's "Freewheelin" - There's no way they could/would have made that record recording Dylan's vocals and guitar separate. They flow together as one in this style.
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Nope. Not buying it. This will be true exactly as long as you keep repeating it to yourself. Once you get over saying you can't you can start figuring out how you can. Until then, your growth as a performer is stunted. If you can't at least do like I said and do each part separately to a scratch, then you're obviously not as good as you think you are.

Now, I'm saying this because you're talking about yourself. If you came into my studio with a limited amount of time to track, I would go with what makes you most comfortable and gets the best performance in the least amount of time.

But at that point I'd be looking to capture the whole thing as it sounds in the room without any real concern for bleed. If you really need to remix the sound of you playing and singing at the same time, then you're obviously not as good as you think you are.

You can't have it both ways.
 
Beatlesfan1225 said:
I've found it nearly impossible not to have a vocal mic pick up some of the guitar.
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That's because it is impossible.
It's also irrelevant though. As long as the bleed isn't ridiculous you'll still have enough control over separate elements.
I record acoustic singer/songwriters all the time and have worked both ways (live and separate).

I make the decision based on competence. Ie. If I think you're good enough to do 'proper' takes, you can go live.
If you're a ballsup artist, I do guitar first and vocal second. This allows for punches, edits, vocal tuning etc.
If you need any of the things in that list, I don't recommend live recording.

No matter which way I do it, the final sound is more or less the same and the bleed from a live recording is never enough to cause problems.

I usually just have a stereo pair of sm81s and a big dynamic for vocals, fwiw.
 
ashcat_lt said:
Nope. Not buying it. This will be true exactly as long as you keep repeating it to yourself. Once you get over saying you can't you can start figuring out how you can. Until then, your growth as a performer is stunted. If you can't at least do like I said and do each part separately to a scratch, then you're obviously not as good as you think you are.
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+1...There was another member here recently with the exact same problem. The tracks that he posted have god awful singing that he is unable to do anything about because he refuses to record the tracks separately. Listening to his tonedeaf vocals should be a huge deterrent to anyone thinking of making the same mistake and recording this way.

rocknrollstar said:
I want to record acoustic songs, I insist on singing and playing at the same time
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https://homerecording.com/bbs/attachment.php?attachmentid=84882&d=1391266933
 
If you haven't got the ability to play the song first and then do the vocals, more practice is required, so forget the recording and practice. Harsh but the truth.

Otherwise you will ave to put up with the vocals and guitar being recorded at the same time with no overdubs or fixing up.

Alan.
 
Beatlesfan1225 said:
Recording the two separately isn't really an option for my playing style
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By now you'll possibly be feeling that the whole of HR is against you and haven't really answered your question.
But they have, you know.
Let me take it from a slightly different angle and say that playing a song live and recording that song are, more often than not, two different disciplines. I personally feel that by limiting yourself to only one side of the mountain in the way you record, is doing yourself a disservice.
I would never say definitively "abandon recording playing and singing live" because I think it can be a great way of recording. Let's face it, lots of great records over the decades were recorded that way and I can't tell the difference much of the time. Doing it that way of course invites the very "problem" you've been finding.
But is it really a problem ?
To me, guitar and singing bleed is a bit like drum bleed. It need not be a problem.
At least have a go at recording separately. You might surprise yourself and actually do a few little vocal trills that you might not have done. Become au fait with both ways of doing it. Then you can tailor how you record to each song.
 
Beatlesfan1225 said:
I'm recording fast, finger picked, claw style folk songs. The vocals and the finger picked guitar go hand in hand, and it's difficult to remove one from the other, because the vocals flow with the guitar, and vis versa.
Click to expand...

I understand what you are saying here, I have played like that since the mid 1960s. There was a time when I thought that I could not separate my finger picking from my vocal performance, I was wrong. If you really know your material you can do it.
 
..use one of those... (Sorry, but I couldn't resist!)

http://www.bft-online.de/fileadmin/...hmerztherapien_16.03.2011/Operierter_Hund.JPG

no... sincerely: why don't you try recording just the guitar and singing the song either at very low volume or 'in your head'. Then track the vocals. I'm a singer (and lousy guitar Player ;) ) and have the same Problem very often when I'm in the process of writing Songs. It may even help to do some rough recordings at first and listen to them more often to get the Feeling how it sounds. That often makes it MUCH more easy to Play the stuff (and you might even use the scratch track as playback in your Monitor headphone)
 
try using 2 fig 8 mics, it's all about using off axis to separate one mic from the other, point one towards the voice and one towards the guitar, whilst making sure they cancel each other out. I like using 2 Rode NT2-A mics in fig8 mode for that.
 
I ran into this a few months ago.......the guy was playing his guitar way too hard and he couldn't / wouldn't do separate takes.......so I turned the vocal mic off with out telling him and got a good guitar take with just very minimal vocal in it........told him to put down the guitar now and sing......he looked at me like WTF? I then did the vocal track take and played it back for him after and it was right then he realized "hey I can do this separately " !!! As the guys are saying you "CAN" do it you just don't know it until you try with true effort.......it also allows you to be a more well rounded musician!!!!
 
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