how to compose songs?

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From the Perspective of a Newbie

Ok. From the perspective of a newbie, I mean real new, like tonight..

I come to music from a background starting in school band. I started with the basics..learning to read, coming up through marching and concert band. I got involved with school chorus, musicals, and on into college as a music major. SO, I was never very appreciative of folk music etc. I was in the army band, and went to the Armed Forces School of Music. I studied jazz vocals at University of North Florida in Jacksonville, fl...and now I 've gone back to school for Music Production Technology.
That being said..I believe it is important to know as much about your craft as you can. I consider music a life long learning process and as a grandmother, I'm still taking music classes.

There are those who have natural ability and creativity and were able to tap into it and do very well. I would say taking the natural ability and coupling that with formal education..boy ...you can do anything and go anywhere. I think it would be beneficial to take some private music lessons with a teacher who includes theory. Of course, music is a right brain function because the music came before the theory...but it's interesting to go back and look at how music evolved through the ages. I'm sure there are some youtube videos on how music evolved. I just can't imagine that schooling your self as much as possible can be a bad thing.

This is a big topic, but one thing I can say...there were folks throughout history who broke the rules..and ta dahhhh ...we end up with music that constantly evolves. If ya'll have not seen this incredible woman from the UK..Evelyn Glennie, percussionist...please watch her. She is great for explaining how to play music with your whole body..talk about someone who does it with feeling...this woman is it. She is completely deaf.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IU3V6zNER4g
 
logic

Greg_L said:
I don't know shit about music theory and I can write a song. Just do what comes naturally. Do whatever you want. You don't have to know anything to write good music.
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"I dont know shit about music theory and i can write a song"-

Yeah so can a child. But they arent any friggin good.

"Just do what comes naturally"-

He already said nothing good is happening naturally when he tries to write. Great advice. Some real useful wisdom there.

"Do whatever you want"-

That always spawns brilliance when paired with lack of experience.

"You dont have to know anything to write good music"-

Yeah, knowing how to do something well will never help your chances of doing it well. Thats why chefs, astronauts, doctors, architects, and mechanics dont exist.
 
yeah but

jazzloversinc said:
Ok. From the perspective of a newbie, I mean real new, like tonight..

I come to music from a background starting in school band. I started with the basics..learning to read, coming up through marching and concert band. I got involved with school chorus, musicals, and on into college as a music major. SO, I was never very appreciative of folk music etc. I was in the army band, and went to the Armed Forces School of Music. I studied jazz vocals at University of North Florida in Jacksonville, fl...and now I 've gone back to school for Music Production Technology.
That being said..I believe it is important to know as much about your craft as you can. I consider music a life long learning process and as a grandmother, I'm still taking music classes.

There are those who have natural ability and creativity and were able to tap into it and do very well. I would say taking the natural ability and coupling that with formal education..boy ...you can do anything and go anywhere. I think it would be beneficial to take some private music lessons with a teacher who includes theory. Of course, music is a right brain function because the music came before the theory...but it's interesting to go back and look at how music evolved through the ages. I'm sure there are some youtube videos on how music evolved. I just can't imagine that schooling your self as much as possible can be a bad thing.

This is a big topic, but one thing I can say...there were folks throughout history who broke the rules..and ta dahhhh ...we end up with music that constantly evolves. If ya'll have not seen this incredible woman from the UK..Evelyn Glennie, percussionist...please watch her. She is great for explaining how to play music with your whole body..talk about someone who does it with feeling...this woman is it. She is completely deaf.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IU3V6zNER4g
Click to expand...


Yeah but you are making the same old mistakes in analyzing the argument. NO ONE "broke the rules". Ever. And solid theory doesnt tell you there are rules in the sense that some things you "dont do" and others you should always "do". Thats pure insanity. True theory shows you first and foremost the emotional effects of different musical elements. Basically, if you do this, you will get this result. It never says NO to anything.

The second mistake you are making in analyzing the argument, is also a common one. And its one that theory itself is aware of openly. And that is there are always going to be occasional exceptions to percieved limitations. Yeah, there may be 1 deaf lady who does something weird that creates the illusion of insane bizarre "rule breaking" passion but thats ONE LADY. Dont be a fool and assume that because of 1 happy accident that all other mistakes dont exist or can be negated. Do you jump out of a plane without a chute because of that one guy one time who hit the ground and lived?

The odd thing about that second mistake people make in arguing against theory is they automatically assume they are the one in a billion. They would rather sit and fail a million times, hoping and believing that they have some brilliant vision beyond visions, rather than realize they might be just a hopeful nobody, and work their ass off to improve in a very real and solid way by trying to accept that they should learn some solid technique.

OK OK everyone ive got the answer to end all answers. Study your ass off. Learn every musical trick in the book. Copy every successful act in history and learn how to be brilliant in a thousand believable varieties. Then, when you are famous and rich and trying to act the part of a talented rock star, pretend that it all just "came to you" because you "have talent". This will do 2 things. 1 it will make you seem really hip. 2 it will keep generations of musicians in the dark, failing and believing that their first "hit song" is only 1 happy inspired accident away as soon as they get their new 10 thousand dollar amp/mic/preamp/recorder/pedal/studio in the mail.
 
theory

Theory isnt about what you play. Its about what is heard.
 
Second post and he's exhuming dead threads... way to go xpolaris.

Out of interest I read the whole thing (OK, I'm bored...) and the OP never set foot back in the thread after the first post...

So much of that goes on around here..
 
Armistice said:
Out of interest I read the whole thing and the OP never set foot back in the thread after the first post...

So much of that goes on around here..
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I read it too and noticed that. It is actually really irritating. It's like the opposite of a soap opera. You can't watch the next episode ! What happened to the OP ? Did they write a song ? What did they make of the two major divergences of opinion ? Were they scared off ? Are they lurking ?
We could be hanging in suspence forever !
 
wow~! What an epic thread - that toddskins guy is hilarious.

I suspect this xpolaris guy is one in the same with Mr.Honesty and Todd

kekekekek
 
Interesting discussion. The thing is you're all correct. What works for one person doesn't work for another. For me though the inspiration is vastly more important than anything else, but I find the inspiration is very ephemeral in the sense that if I treat it too roughly and try and organise it too much it will simply disappear and I will be left with nothing but a vague memory of an idea and a few crude bits of music which no longer have any meaning or value. I never sit down at the keyboard and think "I am going to write a song or a piece of music", I improvise on the keyboard because I love it and love the sounds that come out, and occasionaly I think "that's really nice, I could do something with that! Now that could be followed by....." etc. It all happens without any conscious thought about structure etc, but of course unconscious parts of your brain are working away at it, and all the implicit rules of music which you have unconsciously learned simply by listening to music come into play automaticaly. That's what works for me, but for some people a more systematic intellectual approach works better.
 
First post and a topic iread with interest.

One of the greatest composers of all time Irving Berlin said of the song 'White Xmas' (the best selling single in any category for over 50 years) that he could never have written the song if he had known music theory.
The greatest American composer was firmly in the music is about creative idea camp. I am sure there are scores of other great composers that could be presented to argue for the knowledge is power camp.

Perhaps the greatest opportunity that we have ever had to break the commercial 'three minute song' rule is now that we are able to create music and present/publish it to the world via the internet.

Dare to create what you feel.
 
Vaca de Guerra said:
... One of the greatest composers of all time Irving Berlin said of the song 'White Xmas' (the best selling single in any category for over 50 years) that he could never have written the song if he had known music theory...
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I write a lot of songs that require horn charts. There's no way I could do that without knowing music theory. No way.

Basically you will only find people who don't know theory defending not knowing it. Part of it is that in some music, like say blues, you can get away without charts and it's probably even better, and the other part is like the story of the fox and the grapes.

I will say though that seeing people read charts on stage is akin to watching a movie and the actors are reading scripts. Reading should be for studio and learning songs. Other than classical and big band music, reading music on stage is beyond horrible to me.
 
dintymoore said:
I write a lot of songs that require horn charts. There's no way I could do that without knowing music theory. No way.

Basically you will only find people who don't know theory defending not knowing it.
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A massive assumption on your part and massively wrong. I have studied and taught music for years. The point was about creativity, not writing charts for horns. Two different sides of the brain.
 
for me i can take a simple instrument and just by sheer experimentation assemble the bones of a structure for a song. The important thing is that all the while doing so im finding sympathetic melody lines in my head and constantly playing them off every experiment with my instrument as i go.

This is for me the crux of composing songs ..its like simulating what happens between two people jamming out some ideas together and collectively creating a song.

pre visulisation... 90 percent is in your head .. you just need to bring it into the real world.

hope this makes sense.
 
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