how to compose songs?

  • Thread starter Thread starter EleosFever
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EleosFever

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hello..

I'm writing lyrics, riffs, loops but i don't know how to combine it to make a song.. every time I'm on my DAW I'm starting to write something but i don't know how and with what to combine it..

can you give me any tips or tutorials?
 
I don't know shit about music theory and I can write a song. Just do what comes naturally. Do whatever you want. You don't have to know anything to write good music.
 
I'm not quite sure what you're asking. Do you mean arranging a song, as in song structure?? Or how to get it recorded in your DAW like drums first, scratch guit first, etc?? Or how to write a song?? I'm thinking you should have your song mostly written and know what you're going to record before opening your DAW to record. I use Cubase and it's not so great for writing songs, gotta have that done before hand.
 
That's why Reaper is the best. I just open it and bam, new song.
 
I have no technology and write my songs acapela! It's cheap, and green! :D

I know some music theory but don't use it much...
 
I think

Generally, there are 3 approaches. I consider myself a composer, as opposed to a songwriter. Kinda like a modern Beethoven. Beethoven did not write songs, if you can understand what I am trying to convey. Composing (from my position) involves story telling via music. The music is the most important thing. No words are necessary. The melody in composition does not behave nor resemble the melody of a "song."

Songs, are more in league with pop culture. By that I mean, it's simpler. There are other variances, but this might help you to understand the rules I'm about to list for you - all pertaining to "songwriting."

So, with this backdrop, allow me to explain what I think might be helpful.


Three approaches:

1) Lyrics. Many start with good words. They believe there is a story worth telling. But that is not enough. The lyrics must accompany a melody. So if you have your lyrics, you may not have a melody. But it might be best if when reading over your words, you try to create the melody because this is a very difficult thing to come up with if you try to add a melody later to new music. More on this below. The other very difficult thing is to make your lyrics fit a melody that is great. You will find yourself rewriting your words to fit the melody. You can only stretch out a single syllable that must cover several beats, so many times and only so far. Catch my drift? So words will most often need to be reworked when you get to melody.

2) Melody. Probably the most important part of songwriting. You come up with an idea, a riff, a musical melody that you enjoy humming. It has the feel regarding something you want to put words to. Even if you don't put words to it, it is very enjoyable to hum. History has taught us (as does common sense) that this is extremely important to the endurance and likeability of a song. I could give countless examples of artists who have very cool melodies, while the rest of the song sucked. But it made it as a "hit" anyway! :)

3) Music (as in everything else besides the melody, i.e. beat, rhythm, and harmonies). If you write music, the chord progressions, musical runs, counterpoint dialogues between instruments and other musical expressions, the tempo, the syncapation, the outline of the song from start to finish, you have what resembles a composition (old school thinking) in that it lacks lyrics, and no direct melody yet. The problem with taking this course first (as I do and I know how hard this is!) is that trying to overlay a melody on top of your music, is very, very hard. It's almost like trying to build your foundation after you have contructed your walls and roof. VERY HARD THING TO DO! But allow me to add, that people who typically take approach #1 and #2 initially, before this 3rd, don't often come up with great music. Again, understand my definition of music (this 3rd definition).


In the old days (my opinion, everything prior to about 1985) had more homeruns - great music, great melody, and not bad lyrics. You can tell my bias from this sentence.


So, depending on which of those 3 you find yourself migrating toward, you will eventually have to add the other 2 elements to comprise your "song".


I may be posting my first ever MP3 of a song I'm working on this very moment to this site because I'm entering a contest and the deadline is in a couple of weeks. I wrote the music first, then lyrics, and am now trying to fit it all into a good catchy melody... but it's not stellar (the melody that is). I would hope it is, but it is not.

Nevertheless, you will be able to get a first-hand understanding of what I just wrote about (above) to instruct you on various approaches - mine being the 3rd. Of course, I'm hoping people will be riveted by my music, and maybe good story-telling. The melody is not easy for me. Stay tuned, and I'll drop a link in here when I get it mixed and uploaded for people to hear.
 
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Quite contrare - Do use your mind!

Greg_L said:
Some of you are seriously overthinking this shit.
Click to expand...


Music is a most intelligent art. This quote is perfect example of why almost 100% of modern song-making is boring, unsophisticated, and just plain horrible sounding.
 
Eleos' question makes it sound like he thinks that there is some magical software that will combine his little bits and loops into a cohesive tune.
It doesn't work that way, buddy.
 
Toddskins said:
3) Music (as in everything else besides the melody, i.e. beat, rhythm, and harmonies). If you write music, the chord progressions, musical runs, counterpoint dialogues between instruments and other musical expressions, the tempo, the syncapation, the outline of the song from start to finish, you have what resembles a composition (old school thinking) in that it lacks lyrics, and no direct melody yet. The problem with taking this course first (as I do and I know how hard this is!) is that trying to overlay a melody on top of your music, is very, very hard. It's almost like trying to build your foundation after you have contructed your walls and roof. VERY HARD THING TO DO! But allow me to add, that people who typically take approach #1 and #2 initially, before this 3rd, don't often come up with great music. Again, understand my definition of music (this 3rd definition).

Trying here to use your definitions as you intend them! I too think it's important to have "music" as opposed to just "melody" and "lyric", but the idea that you would create "music" first and then go looking for a "direct melody" to lay over it does not sound like a recipe for success at all, in terms of songwriting. Assuming that's what you mean! If you don't have a strong direct melody to start with, your song is going nowhere. As you say yourself, it's building a house without a foundation. You can develop a direct melody along the way, sure, but songwriting is about melody more than anything else, in my opinion. So I'd start with that, not write a backing track and then try to find a melody. You're right, that would be very hard indeed, and I don't see it as a modus operandi for songwriting, more one for musical experimentation. Maybe I am wrong. I'll will keep thinking about it...

My approach is direct melody and lyric developed simultaneously. For me the two are hand in glove, but I take your point that more often than not, the melody is more important in a song in terms of its potential to be well received. Having got what I hope is something good, I'd then look at creating what you define as "music", the rest of it, rhythm, harmony, etc. I do not claim to have the ability to write what I consider to be great songs, but I don't think that is because I write with the wrong method.


In the old days (my opinion, everything prior to about 1985) had more homeruns - great music, great melody, and not bad lyrics. You can tell my bias from this sentence.

That may be so, it's a very subjective thing, but I doubt if that is down to writers not writing "music" (using your definition) In my opinion it would be more likely to do with the way the music industry works these days. Now it's run by business suits, marketing people, accountants, etc. MORE SO THAN EVER BEFORE and no one is interested in art, they are interested in IMAGE above all else.

Even in 1962, the first thing that impressed George Martin about The Beatles was their image and individual personalities, which he felt he could "do something with.." and not their performance nor their songwriting. If they had been four quiet, ugly guys, would he have taken them on? I doubt it.

It's worse now. Many albums that were made before 1985 which we might consider "good" would not even get a chance to made and/or marketed by the big companies these days.

Also, there is plenty of good stuff post 1985. As you say, you are biased. Not a good thing to be biased in that way, in my opinion, but we all have our bias, we're human after all!

I may be posting my first ever MP3 of a song I'm working on this very moment to this site because I'm entering a contest and the deadline is in a couple of weeks. I wrote the music first, then lyrics, and am now trying to fit it all into a good catchy melody... but it's not stellar (the melody that is). I would hope it is, but it is not.

Nevertheless, you will be able to get a first-hand understanding of what I just wrote about (above) to instruct you on various approaches - mine being the 3rd. Of course, I'm hoping people will be riveted by my music, and maybe good story-telling. The melody is not easy for me. Stay tuned, and I'll drop a link in here when I get it mixed and uploaded for people to hear.
Click to expand...

I look forward to hearing your song!
 
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Toddskins said:
Music is a most intelligent art. This quote is perfect example of why almost 100% of modern song-making is boring, unsophisticated, and just plain horrible sounding.
Click to expand...

Music is also "of the people". It's part of the human psyche. People who are not particularly intelligent have music that they like. Music that to your ears may be horrible. But "horrible" is just your subjective opinion and no more valid than theirs.

You are almost sounding like a musical snob! Is that really you? :)
 
Toddskins said:
Music is a most intelligent art. This quote is perfect example of why almost 100% of modern song-making is boring, unsophisticated, and just plain horrible sounding.
Click to expand...

Really? Let's hear your groundbreaking, money-making shit. :rolleyes:


Music is just music. One man's genius is another man's boring as fuck. None of it matters. Just do whatever you want and be honest about it. You don't need a degree in music to make good songs. You don't need to be a freaking physics major either. Just be real.
 
Frankie Rage said:
Music is also "of the people". It's part of the human psyche. People who are not particularly intelligent have music that they like. Music that to your ears may be horrible. But "horrible" is just your subjective opinion and no more valid than theirs.

You are almost sounding like a musical snob! Is that really you? :)
Click to expand...



heheh

Well.... yeah... I'm a snob. Sorry.


I don't think of myself as a snob, so much as a person who acknowledges the standard. And that standard is extremely high.

And we expect such things. This is not a surprise. Doesn't it go without saying, that of course the less artistic, less educated, less schooled, less discplined, will be happy with LESS? Of course!

What also goes w/o saying is that that is going to seem and feel just fine and dandy for said people.

But as you move up the pyramid, the subset of the population, naturally gets smaller. It's not arrogance, nor snobbery. Some will, unfortunately, make such accusations or name-calling. Whatever.


Nothing I'm saying is really very profound. Just common sense... at least it should be.


I'll tell you one last thought on this - There have been several people over the years that I have taken the time to demonstrate music to, both in my own writing and by introducing older music to them that they had never heard, and ... and this is a biggie... taking the time to point out the flaws in the music that they liked. What is most satisfying is how these people come back weeks or months later with new love for music and each has in turn confessed that what they used to like, they now hate.

As I reflect on these times, I always say that all it took was someone who actually cared and was in the know... to teach them.

Nothing is more satisfying than when students of music take the time to learn from somebody they esteem as better. Very seldom happens, but when it does, it makes it all worthwhile.
 
This thread shows how different songwriter's may be in approach.

From Greg L who suggests that song writing should not be overly cerebral - to Toddskins who appears to have given much thought to the process.

I myself beleive that someone who is motivated to be a "good" songwriter will spend time to learn and analyze the craft, will learn enough theory to understand why certain chords work under certain melodies, etc and will master language enough to tell a story in a well crafted and interesting way. And like Toodskins, I tend to think that on a whole, the songs written in decades past were better crafted than much of the current music (perhaps because the writers learned the craft and mastered thier instruments -rather then depending of a software program to write a song for them).

I don't really agree with Greg L's suggesting that a willingness to analyze the craft is "over thinking" (but I do respect many of the thoughts and posts he has submitted to this coummunity). However, I can see how a more basic - just write what you want and have fun with it approach, can be an enjoyable way to write.

I suppose, in part - it depends on what the expectations may be. If a writer hopes to achieve some "commercail success" (have a song placed, earn income, etc.) then learning the craft is important. If simply wiring to be creative and to express oneself, regardless of the level of "success" - then a disregard of the craft could indeed work.

Regarding a good book, as a resource to someone trying to learn the craft (and there are many good books) - I've found "Learn To Write Songs on Guitar" - by: Rikky Rooksby to be a very direct, easy to understand work which addresses basic theory as well as some fundamental common sense approaches to writing songs. However, the best way to learn how to write/compose is to listen to and analyze songs is the genre you want to write in - or even better, in any genre that has well written songs (the Beatles among others could be the gold standard).
 
Once you apply all of these rules and fundamentals to your song, you're gonna have a scripted, mechanical, probably predictable, self-indulgent turd.

Enjoy! :D


It's very, very, very unlikely any of you, or me, will write a "hit". And I'm not sure why you'd even want to write something that appeals to millions of dumbasses unless you want to make money - in which case you will have to write some crappy, scripted, mechanical, predictable, self-indulgent crap. So, in my eyes, you might as well write something that's genuine and honest and forget all the rules and structure and just do what comes naturally. If you have to read a book to write a song, maybe you should find another hobby.
 
Music is more then just music. It evokes emotion and feelings. I tend to write what I'm feeling at the time. I like to have a structure setting in my writing. Some is good and some sucks. But just try to be creative. Good luck.
 
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