How important is subject matter in songs ?

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Do you know the way to Fennario? Or wonder where the Nuthatch winters? What is the "Buck Dancer's Choice?" And where do the four winds dwell? If these are questions that leave you wondering then David Dodd's The Complete Annotated Grateful Dead Lyrics may just be the skeleton key you've been looking for. Every Deadhead knows there is something profound hidden within their lyrics, even if most of the nuances go by unnoticed. Why are the obscure tales of their characters' (Jack Straw, Black Peter, August West, et al) trials and tribulations on the psychedelic Americana landscape so intriguing? What is the deal with the reoccurring imagery that popped in and out of their songs for decades (the crows, light and darkness, rolling rivers, gambling, playing cards, space, and, of course, roses)? It is clear the Grateful Dead's lyricists Robert Hunter and John Barlow tapped into the well of the collective subconscious for material, but rarely were any explanations provided. Fans were basically on their own to put the pieces together themselves, until now.
The Complete Annotated Grateful Dead Lyrics began as a research project for David Dodd while he was working at the University of Colorado. Like many fans before him, Dodd spent hours passionately trying to find the deeper meanings in the Dead's songs. In 1994 the Internet may have been in its infancy, but Dodd knew the Web was the perfect to tool to help him annotate the entire Dead catalog. So began the building of his incredibly popular Web site. The fruits of his labors lie within the pages of this encyclopedic book. Where Robert Hunter's A Box of Rain only includes his lyrical contributions to the Dead's catalog, Dodd's book is expanded to include John Barlow's songs, as well as tunes the Dead covered so many times they became their own. It is worth mentioning, this book should not be viewed as a cheat sheet, but a tool giving lots of background and cross-references. The interpretations are still up to you. Be forewarned, this book can be extremely habit forming. --Rob Bracco --This text refers to an out of print or unavailable edition of this title.
 
I think Hunter was the perfect lyricist for Jerry's tunes because he understood the synesthetic properties of words. They often referenced what was going in the music. Like that bridge in Black Peter where he says "my friends all come around...come aroooound come aroooound...." the "come around" line's drawn out and repeated as the chords kind of go around in this big circle. So the actual storytelling level of the lyrics is really secondary to their purpose as a drug toy. Not a Hunter lyric, but in Born Cross Eyed- "Think I'll come back here agback here againvry now and thevery now and thfrom TIME TO TIIIIIME". I know Jerry claimed to be a synethetist and there seemed to be an effort with them to make everything work together on a musical level, to always be doing the right thing at the right time, and with words that often comes at the expense of exact meaning. Anyways Hunter was good at that stuff.
 
fat_fleet said:
i think hunter was the perfect lyricist for jerry's tunes because he understood the synesthetic properties of words. They often referenced what was going in the music. Like that bridge in black peter where he says "my friends all come around...come aroooound come aroooound...." the "come around" line's drawn out and repeated as the chords kind of go around in this big circle. So the actual storytelling level of the lyrics is really secondary to their purpose as a drug toy. Not a hunter lyric, but in born cross eyed- "think i'll come back here agback here againvry now and thevery now and thfrom time to tiiiiime". I know jerry claimed to be a synethetist and there seemed to be an effort with them to make everything work together on a musical level, to always be doing the right thing at the right time, and with words that often comes at the expense of exact meaning. Anyways hunter was good at that stuff.
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no he wasnt, he didnt know what he was doing!
 
Greg_L said:
Yes and like with any song that's all that matters. That's why these discussions are retarded for anything beyond just self-righteous internet masturbation.
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I thoroughly agree with the first sentence and thoroughly disagree with the second.
There's nothing self righteous or masturbatory about the three way interchange between Pete the Heat, Fat fleet and Barry c. While I do agree that these debates can and often do descend into hell, before they reach that point there's often a lot of great stuff there. Actually, barry c and Heatmiser are just like you; they think they're right !
Lots of people like to go beyond simply liking something like a song. The fact that we like songs opens up other doors, such as talking about them.
If all we ever talked of were the mechanical aspects of recording on this site, threads would be very short, few conversations would happen and man, would it be one dimensionally boring !
 
Greg_L said:
don't care.


All I know is any "discussion" involving barry is not legit.
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Yes when you make up your mind about something, and somebody proves that you are wrong, you say "I dont Care"

and people who think because you get good recordings and can play punk rock pretty well, that you know everything there is to know about songwriting, and so whatever you say MUST be true.

Any real songwriter knows Ive destroyed you in this debate, but keep writing songs about K mart, they as just as good as Visions of Joahnaa
 
grimtraveller said:
I thoroughly agree with the first sentence and thoroughly disagree with the second.
There's nothing self righteous or masturbatory about the three way interchange between Pete the Heat, Fat fleet and Barry c. While I do agree that these debates can and often do descend into hell, before they reach that point there's often a lot of great stuff there. Actually, barry c and Heatmiser are just like you; they think they're right !
Lots of people like to go beyond simply liking something like a song. The fact that we like songs opens up other doors, such as talking about them.
If all we ever talked of were the mechanical aspects of recording on this site, threads would be very short, few conversations would happen and man, would it be one dimensionally boring !
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The problem is people dont bother trying to figure out anything, only one answer here is acceptable, greg C doesnt think craft is a word, and thinks his songs are the finest written songs in the history of music, I think he's a talented guy, but he doesnt know a thing about songwriting.
 
:laughings: :laughings:

My songs are awesome. You don't have to think so. Only I have to think so.
 
barry c said:
Yes when you make up your mind about something, and somebody proves that you are wrong, you say "I dont Care"

and people who think because you get good recordings and can play punk rock pretty well, that you know everything there is to know about songwriting, and so whatever you say MUST be true.

Any real songwriter knows Ive destroyed you in this debate, but keep writing songs about K mart, they as just as good as Visions of Joahnaa
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Lol @ winning the internet

P.S. - we're not debating anything. Try again.
 
Greg_L said:
Lol @ winning the internet

P.S. - we're not debating anything. Try again.
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No correction we WERENT debating anything, only when I came into the conversation, and changed the landscape from there are only likes and dislikes, to there is more to it, there is well crafted, and not, did it turn into debates.

I dont dislike your songs, as I have said I think you do very well in punk rock genre, but your not writing Songs like the Clash, now that was a great writing band.

You close your mind because you do what you do and wont acknowledge other music and skill sets exist. What is a folk singer supposed to do? No drums, no distorted guitars, recording not a big factor, but they have careers.

Time to drift out of your bubble
 
Lol. Maybe when you can actually write a song I'll consider your opinions. But probably not. Thanks anyway.
 
no one's destroyed anyone.

Music is inherently a personal thing.
ALL rules are arbitrary and the standards change along with society.
While it's true that some rules are very popular and thus dominate music for a while even the most dominant rules eventually decline in power.

Regardless of what a persons' standards are, they ultimately only apply to him. Also regardless of how hard he argues that his view point is the 'one true view'.
Music, and the standards to which it is held, are arbitrary and variable and there are no actual rules that definitively declare a song good or bad ...... only opinions.

These discussions are a good way to get different viewpoints about how different people approach things and as long as you laugh off anyone that's pushing hard to make you understand that their viewpoint is THE standard for everyone, you can learn a lot of useful ideas.
 
Greg_L said:
Lol. Maybe when you can actually write a song I'll consider your opinions. But probably not. Thanks anyway.
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That's funny. Even if my songs are the worst of all time, my idea that songs can be well crafted and badly crafted stand.

there is also objectivity, not just subjectivity. When those bad IDOL singers go on in the beginning of the show, they are so god awful. EVERYBODY knows it, they ar eput on the show for laughs.

Why is it that everybody knows they suck? Because they they dont hit pitch, they have no control, they sound like dying cows, it doesnt take a genius to figure it out.

Nobody thinks Weird AL is a great singer, he will never be thought of a s a great singer, just a funny guy.

The same as you can tell if an idol singer is god awful. a skilled songwriter can tell the same thing by listening to bad songs.
 
barry c said:
That's funny. Even if my songs are the worst of all time, my idea that songs can be well crafted and badly crafted stand.

there is also objectivity, not just subjectivity. When those bad IDOL singers go on in the beginning of the show, they are so god awful. EVERYBODY knows it, they ar eput on the show for laughs.

Why is it that everybody knows they suck? Because they they dont hit pitch, they have no control, they sound like dying cows, it doesnt take a genius to figure it out.

Nobody thinks Weird AL is a great singer, he will never be thought of a s a great singer, just a funny guy.

The same as you can tell if an idol singer is god awful. a skilled songwriter can tell the same thing by listening to bad songs.
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:laughings:

There's so much wrong with this analogy I won't even correct it.

And you're not doing "craft" any favors by overusing it.
 
Lt. Bob said:
no one's destroyed anyone.

Music is inherently a personal thing.
ALL rules are arbitrary and the standards change along with society.
While it's true that some rules are very popular and thus dominate music for a while even the most dominant rules eventually decline in power.

Regardless of what a persons' standards are, they ultimately only apply to him. Also regardless of how hard he argues that his view point is the 'one true view'.
Music, and the standards to which it is held, are arbitrary and variable and there are no actual rules that definitively declare a song good or bad ...... only opinions.

These discussions are a good way to get different viewpoints about how different people approach things and as long as you laugh off anyone that's pushing hard to make you understand that their viewpoint is THE standard for everyone, you can learn a lot of useful ideas.
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Well Id be more than willing to accept anyones opinion, but when somebody speaks there's why they should be attacked by everybody on the forum, especially if the attacked happens to know what he is talking about.

Anything Ive stated Ive documented with something to back it up, all I get from most you guys is "Im right, your wrong"
 
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