How important are scales and theory in your guitar playing?

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Do you use theory and scales in your guitar playing?

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Greg_L said:
I didn't say that. Practice all day and night, non-stop, but you gotta understand that you'll never get there. Once a person accepts their own limitations and makes peace with them, then they can really start to enjoy whatever it is they're doing just for what it is. Practice, and get as good as you can at golf, and have a blast along the way. Just don't fool yourself into thinking you're gonna beat Tiger.
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But golfers who arguably can barely hold a candle to Tiger have beaten him. Mind you, golf is a competitive sport with a defined and definite end so it's maybe a different thing. But is music about 'beating people' ? For me, making music has a joyous impreciseness {Blimey !:eek: I don't even know if there is such a word} about it's opinion driven outcome.
 
I started playing piano before I could walk but never took it seriously until I was in my 11th grade and took two years of piano lessons from an old lady who was Mrs. Romper Room's mother. They had different Romper Rooms around the country.

I started playing drums when I was 11 and played in Jimi Hendrix & Creedance type bands for several years before learning how to read.
Around 10th grade I became obsessed with cracking the nut of theory and started writing charts for the bands I was in.
I still write a lot of charts, all by hand. I've written the charts for shows in Waikiki and also do charts for a major show band in NYC. A few months ago I wrote charts for an extravaganza in Manhattan honoring the writer of the Dick Van Dyke Show and many other shows. Dick didn't end up showing but I did the chart for "That Girl" (to bring them on and off) and Marlo Thomas and her famous husband were there and liked it so that was pretty funny.

Despite this, I really don't like "theory" type players. I've always got along with more "feel" type players.
So as far as theory goes, learn it then forget it and play.
 
dintymoore said:
That was my take on your post.

One thing guitarists should realize too is that music theory and in particular the way music was written on music paper was based on keyboard/piano.
The way middle "C" is in between the bass and treble clefs for instance. That, plus oddities like that dastardly B string and the prevalence of music reading piano teachers have always given piano players an edge over guitar players as far as learning many aspects of theory.

If music was primarily written in guitar tablature the situation would be reversed.

I personally think that a lot of guitar players would really benefit in learning how to lay down a good shaker track on a tune. How to keep time and outline the form of the tune.

I think everybody should at least try some horn like trumpet/bugle/or trombone to get some idea of what that funny harmonic series (like the World's Series?) thingy is all about.

'Cause all there is to the math (theory) of music is time and the harmonic series. Everything is under one of those two headings.

The harmonic series is pretty cut and dried. It keeps the planets in their places.

Time is the weird one.
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That is interesting. Last night there was a show about John Entwhistle, He understands a lot of theory, he mentioned harmonics, He played trumpet and french horn as a kid. I think because he understands the theory he can really rip!
VP
 
Victory Pete said:
That is interesting. Last night there was a show about John Entwhistle, He understands a lot of theory, he mentioned harmonics, He played trumpet and french horn as a kid. I think because he understands the theory he can really rip!
VP
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If it's the same programme I'm thinking of, it's an interesting one. I first saw it last year and it left me thinking that there were a number of rockers who kind of thought that rock was primitive and almost musically demeaning. There were lots of them in the 60s and 70s. Guys brought up in jazz or classical or who learned theory. Though a number of them ended up in rock, some of them seemed to look down on the music and took almost every opportunity to emphasize their jazz or blues roots. Yet some of them couldn't help but dig the music either. Some elements of progressive rock were a reaction to that kind of snobbery.
That's not knocking theory, by the way. Entwistle's actually a good example of a 'theorist' who applied what he knew to his craft. He was instinctive and cerebral at the same time.
 
muttley600 said:
You sir are a cock. Apart from that there isn't a verifiable true statement in any of that supercilious tripe you have posted. Thankfully, there are many facts in the statement of mine you quote.

I wasn't comparing musical ability with sporting ability. To correct you,No, constant practice will not instil athletic prowess. Also I did no suggest or imply that teaching could do so in either case. As with music, if the natural talent is not there to begin with you can not substitute it with practice.

From a teaching perspective the presence of either musical talent or sporting talent is not and never has been a bar to accessing coaching or teaching. How do I know this? Well I'm a a sports coach and teach music theory and musical acoustics.

Once again you are a cock, and an ignorant one at that.
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Hey,
calm down! since when can a person not express his opinion or answer a question without some half wit trying to assasinate his character?! Like all jocks i've ever known, your the type that wants to kick someones ass at the first sign of disagreement! My grandson plays football at his high school where his coach puts in his best players because to him, winning is more important than giving less athletic kids a chance! I consider this evidence of "jock mentality"! win at any cost, no matter who gets hurt! but, what has any of this got to do with music?
 
Victory Pete said:
That is interesting. Last night there was a show about John Entwhistle, He understands a lot of theory, he mentioned harmonics, He played trumpet and french horn as a kid. I think because he understands the theory he can really rip!
VP
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Playing music without knowing theory is like a guy driving around a city without a map, and let's throw in that he doesn't know any street names.

Can you do it? For sure! It doesn't matter as long as you get where you want to go.

But why would you want to? it's so much easier with a map!
 
Moonrider said:
Lydian is NOT a scale. It's a mode OF a scale. Each scale has seven modes, which are determined by:



Yes - I'm picky about that crap. . .
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Oh for Pete's sake ... here we go again with the "Modes are NOT scales" crowd.

Why can't you call a mode a scale? Tell you what ... you already do!

The Ionian mode goes by what other name? that's right, the major scale.
The Aeolian mode goes by what other name? yes, the minor scale.

So .... yes, modes are scales!

Who gives a rat's ass that they were derived from starting/ending on different notes of the major scale?

It's much, much, much more useful to think of them as scales in their own right, because just thinking of them as all part of the major scale doesn't do anything for you, except maybe show you major scale patterns all over the guitar neck. And that's easy to do without calling each pattern a different name.

But if you know that Mixolydian is a mode/scale that's just like a major scale but with a b7, then you'll know a good spot to apply it is over dominant chords. Or a Dorian scale/mode like a minor scale but with a raised 6th. So that's good to play over a i - IV progression (minor key with a major IV chord), for example.

Enough with the semantics. Modes are scales!
 
Light said:
One problem - when you are play strictly in position (something we should all aspire to avoid, but that's another issue), there are seven basic "shapes" of a major scale. One with each note of the scale as the lowest note. But your point is still more or less correct - knowledge is usually a good thing, and can help you figure things out faster than if you don't have it.


Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi
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I think he's referring to the CAGED system, wherein each scale shape is based around one of the open-position chord forms: C, A, G, E, or D.

This is another very common fretboard tool and makes just as much sense as the seven-position system because, unless you're strictly referring to 3-note-per-string scale patterns, two patterns in the seven-note system will lie in the same position as two others.

In other words, pattern 7 and pattern 3 lie in the same position as patterns 1 and 4, respectively, because of the half step at the beginning.

Though I didn't make a concsious effort to learn either method, in retrospect, I think the CAGED method is a much better method because it helps you to connect your scales to chord shapes, which is an effective ear training tool.
 
Greg_L said:
Again, WTF do you care? Why are you so staunchly defending your crappy emo band on the internet to people that will:

A) never buy your music
B) never listen to your music
C) never see you live
D) never follow your gay tweets
E) never "add you as a friend"
F) never give a shit in any way, shape, or form?

P.S. - your brother sucks.


I got 10 bucks that says you guys break up in 6 months stemming from a fight over who gets to wear the white belt and torn vans.
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Why do people have to be cocks?

I mean, seriously ... what do you really get out of being a cock, Greg?

Are you really, really that shallow?
 
famous beagle said:
Oh for Pete's sake ... here we go again with the "Modes are NOT scales" crowd.

Why can't you call a mode a scale? Tell you what ... you already do!

The Ionian mode goes by what other name? that's right, the major scale.
The Aeolian mode goes by what other name? yes, the minor scale.

So .... yes, modes are scales!

Who gives a rat's ass that they were derived from starting/ending on different notes of the major scale?

It's much, much, much more useful to think of them as scales in their own right, because just thinking of them as all part of the major scale doesn't do anything for you, except maybe show you major scale patterns all over the guitar neck. And that's easy to do without calling each pattern a different name.

But if you know that Mixolydian is a mode/scale that's just like a major scale but with a b7, then you'll know a good spot to apply it is over dominant chords. Or a Dorian scale/mode like a minor scale but with a raised 6th. So that's good to play over a i - IV progression (minor key with a major IV chord), for example.

Enough with the semantics. Modes are scales!
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Can you leave me out of this please?! PMPLOL!
VP
 
famous beagle said:
Why do people have to be cocks?

I mean, seriously ... what do you really get out of being a cock, Greg?

Are you really, really that shallow?
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What the fuck do you care? Are you in that band? If no, then shut the fuck up.
 
ez_willis said:
because when you band geeks were learning all that BS i was rocking out and getting laid.
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I don't think I missed out on anything in that department!

There's musicians who can play there balls off but can't read, who don't know what they're doing really. I've played with many musicians like that and I have no problem with that... I don't imagine Stevie Wonder is a great reader.

Then there's players that need music paper, who can't play by feel... forget about them unless it's classical music.

Then there's those few that can groove like motherfuckers and read music like motherfuckers on top of that. There's not many of them but I know a few, and they, to me, seem like the ultimate.
 
I just think it's silly when people are dicks or militant about it either way. It's like, what you trying to prove? What are you afraid of?

Like dinty said, there are many fine examples of both types of player. When people like Gerg or EZ get all up in arms and start insulting people because they know more than the notes on the neck, I just have to laugh. Same goes for when people call others shitty players because they don't know theory. It's actually very depressing to me that musicians feel the need to do that.
 
famous beagle said:
I just think it's silly when people are dicks or militant about it either way. It's like, what you trying to prove? What are you afraid of?

Like dinty said, there are many fine examples of both types of player. When people like Gerg or EZ get all up in arms and start insulting people because they know more than the notes on the neck, I just have to laugh. Same goes for when people call others shitty players because they don't know theory. It's actually very depressing to me that musicians feel the need to do that.
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I agree, that is a problem with these forums, it turns some people into arrogant, rude, close-minded know-it-alls.
VP
 
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