How important are scales and theory in your guitar playing?

Do you use theory and scales in your guitar playing?


  • Total voters
    110
The real problem is thinking of theory as a series of rules - its not. Its a language, primarily useful in telling other people WTF you are hearing in your head or what you are playing. My two least favorite musician behaviors are saying either, "I don't want to learn theory because I don't want to be limited by the rules," or "You have to know the rules before you break them." Both groups miss the point completely.

I've always thought of musical theory as sort of a "toolbox" for a player. I'll try to explain what I mean by that, and I think it'll probably put me dangerously close to your second group, but I don't think that's quite where I fall so bear with me.

I would maybe accept the argument that straight up diatonic harmony ("this is a major scale, and these are the chords you get if you harmonize it into triads) is a "rule," but that seems a little strict for me. Rather, it's just sort of a definition of what works - that if you group the notes of a scale together into chords, these are the chords you get, and they'll sound good together. It's sort of like a musical safe zone.

Of course, things that are safe are never any fun. So, then you get into what I really consider the meat and potatoes part of music theory - an understanding of WHY those notes sound good together when grouped like that. Tension and resolution, basically. As you begin to understand that concept, then you also begin to see how you can use that concept to step outside of purely diatonic chords - say, that in a blues in A minor, quick change chords, after that Am-Dm-Am opening couple bars, you can add some pretty cool tension before you go up to the Dm (the fourth) by briefly raising that Am to an A7, because there's a whole shitload of half-step resolutions between A7 and D minor. There's a word for this in music theory, it's called a secondary dominant, but you can infer it pretty easily from just a pretty basic understanding of how resolution works. Similarly, you can use these same concepts to modulate in and out of keys, or write progressions that don't fall purely in any "key" to speak of - one of my favorite sets of chord changes is Stone Temple Pilots' "Interstate Love Song," where you've got this incredibly tense chromatically descending half step bassline that goes down until basically the bottom falls out of it and it collapses upon itself down into the tonic. It's brilliant, but a good understanding of theory helps you understand WHY it works, and furthermore how you can apply the same concepts yourself.

Anyway, I'm kind of rambling, but the gist is you can write some pretty badass progressions entirely by ear, but an understanding of theory really helps you understand why they work (which in turn can make it easier to finish a progression if you get a couple chords that sound good together, but can't finish it and make it come back together into something that sounds good repeated), as well as gives you an idea what you can play if you have to take a solo over it - what scales will probably sound consonant, what ones will probably sound dissonant, and what situations a dissonant sounding scale may sound more appropriate or interesting than a consonant sounding one.

I remember one of the first times I ever had this conversation on the net, some kid was talking about how he didn't want to learn theory because he didn't want to "limit" himself, and then when pushed gave as an example a chord progression from one of his band's songs. I don't remember the exact changes, but it was basically A minor chords - Am, C, Dm, and Em, except at one point it resolved Em-Am, and at another it was E-Am. He claimed that this sort of radical progression, one that used both an Em AND an E, was the kind of thing no one who studied theory would ever write, because it was "against the rules." I started cracking up at the softball I'd just been lobbed, for reasons that I'm sure will be readily apparent to anyone who recalls the history of the harmonic minor scale. :p
 
I've always thought of musical theory as sort of a "toolbox" for a player. I'll try to explain what I mean by that, and I think it'll probably put me dangerously close to your second group, but I don't think that's quite where I fall so bear with me.

I would maybe accept the argument that straight up diatonic harmony ("this is a major scale, and these are the chords you get if you harmonize it into triads) is a "rule," but that seems a little strict for me. Rather, it's just sort of a definition of what works - that if you group the notes of a scale together into chords, these are the chords you get, and they'll sound good together. It's sort of like a musical safe zone.

Of course, things that are safe are never any fun. So, then you get into what I really consider the meat and potatoes part of music theory - an understanding of WHY those notes sound good together when grouped like that. Tension and resolution, basically. As you begin to understand that concept, then you also begin to see how you can use that concept to step outside of purely diatonic chords - say, that in a blues in A minor, quick change chords, after that Am-Dm-Am opening couple bars, you can add some pretty cool tension before you go up to the Dm (the fourth) by briefly raising that Am to an A7, because there's a whole shitload of half-step resolutions between A7 and D minor. There's a word for this in music theory, it's called a secondary dominant, but you can infer it pretty easily from just a pretty basic understanding of how resolution works. Similarly, you can use these same concepts to modulate in and out of keys, or write progressions that don't fall purely in any "key" to speak of - one of my favorite sets of chord changes is Stone Temple Pilots' "Interstate Love Song," where you've got this incredibly tense chromatically descending half step bassline that goes down until basically the bottom falls out of it and it collapses upon itself down into the tonic. It's brilliant, but a good understanding of theory helps you understand WHY it works, and furthermore how you can apply the same concepts yourself.

Anyway, I'm kind of rambling, but the gist is you can write some pretty badass progressions entirely by ear, but an understanding of theory really helps you understand why they work (which in turn can make it easier to finish a progression if you get a couple chords that sound good together, but can't finish it and make it come back together into something that sounds good repeated), as well as gives you an idea what you can play if you have to take a solo over it - what scales will probably sound consonant, what ones will probably sound dissonant, and what situations a dissonant sounding scale may sound more appropriate or interesting than a consonant sounding one.

I remember one of the first times I ever had this conversation on the net, some kid was talking about how he didn't want to learn theory because he didn't want to "limit" himself, and then when pushed gave as an example a chord progression from one of his band's songs. I don't remember the exact changes, but it was basically A minor chords - Am, C, Dm, and Em, except at one point it resolved Em-Am, and at another it was E-Am. He claimed that this sort of radical progression, one that used both an Em AND an E, was the kind of thing no one who studied theory would ever write, because it was "against the rules." I started cracking up at the softball I'd just been lobbed, for reasons that I'm sure will be readily apparent to anyone who recalls the history of the harmonic minor scale. :p

Summary please!
 
band geek defends his earlier position.

:p

Um... Let's see if I can get this into a single sentence...

"Theory's pretty damned useful, because it helps you understand why that kickass progression you just came up with sounds so good together, which helps you learn from it and continue to write stuff that awesome, as well as taking some of the guesswork out of figuring out what notes you can get away with if you want to solo over it."

How'd I do?
 
:p

Um... Let's see if I can get this into a single sentence...

"Theory's pretty damned useful, because it helps you understand why that kickass progression you just came up with sounds so good together, which helps you learn from it and continue to write stuff that awesome, as well as taking some of the guesswork out of figuring out what notes you can get away with if you want to solo over it."

How'd I do?

You're putting too much thought into something that's simple. If you can just come up with a progression thats kick ass, then it doesn't matter why it happened. If it sounds good, it is good, regardless of why.

So basically theory is just a lazy mans formula for making music that fits a template. Got it.

Aren't your ears supposed to tell you what works?
 
You're putting too much thought into something that's simple. If you can just come up with a progression thats kick ass, then it doesn't matter why it happened. If it sounds good, it is good, regardless of why.

So basically theory is just a lazy mans formula for making music that fits a template. Got it.

Aren't your ears supposed to tell you what works?

I think we're coming up on a philosophical difference, then.

If it sounds good, it is good. No arguments there. However, if you've done something that sounds good, while that's cool I think it also matters if you can repeat it or not. Coming up with a cool chord progression is great, but what if it was dumb luck? Isn't it better if you could learn something about why those chords worked well together, and apply that lesson to other musical situations? Or, taking it a step further, if you hear a chord progression you really like, isn't there some value in being able to sit down and work out what about it makes your ear say "Hey, that's pretty cool?"

I think it's a simple question of learning about your craft. Look at it like learning to use a compressor or an EQ. If you sit down and start twisting knobs at random, over a long enough timeline you might come up with a pretty kickass mix. That's great - job well done. However, when it comes down to sit down and work on your next mix, you could sit down and start trying settings at random again, and maybe you'll also get good results, but maybe you won't. Or, you could have spent some time thinking about why the settings you ended up with worked so well, and draw some conclusions based on that. Say, maybe, that you made an EQ cut at a speficic frequency. Maybe after digging around a bit you realized you cut at about the second harmonic of the fundamental of the most prominent note on that part, and it seemed to help strengthen the fundamental a bit, which worked for what you were doing in that song. So, this time around, you figure why not try that same principle and see how that works out in the mix, except this time when you try it you realize that the instrument is doing something a bit differently and you want to bring out the overtones, not the fundamental. So, you drop the cut down to the fundamental, and add a slight boost around that harmonic, and suddenly you're hearing something that's working for you.

Continuing with that analogy, I'm not taking about theory as if it's something like a bunch of saved presets, and every time you see X, you load preset Y and be done with it. Rather, it's a way of understanding relationships between different chords and chord tones.

There's nothing lazy about knowing theory (far from it), and if anything you write sounds formulaic or "from a template," then that's an issue with your creativity or your songwriting ability. Theory's just a way of understanding how music works. It's like studying grammar - you don't HAVE to do it to hold a conversation, and you can make your point clear by just listening to other people and paying attention to how they order your words, but it's a heck of a lot easier if you understand it.
 
I guess this is what I'm trying to say. Let's say you've got most of a chord progression worked out, and it rules, but you're missing this chord. You can hear it in your heard, but you can't for the life of you figure out what it is.

Knowing theory kicks ass in this situation because listening to the chord change in your head, you can figure out a lot about how the chord resolves from one to the next, and kind of reason out what pitches it must be composed of. Are you hearing a lot of half step resolutions? Or is it not that tense? What does it seem to be functioning as within the chord progression?

Answering these questions can help you figure out what cluster of notes will give you that "effect" you're hearing in your head. Then, from there, once you figure out what it is, knowing how chords are constructed is also useful when you then want to turn around to the other guitarist in your band and say, "ok, this is a B major to a C diminished 7th with an added 9th, resolving down to an E major chord," and if the guy knows his chords he can pick it up that much easier.
 
Ok, take two.

"If you can convince chicks you know music theory, they'll probably want to have sex with you."


Do you play in public? That's where the fucking chicks are. If they can tell you're arrogant and good, they love you LONG time.



Sometimes, too long.
 
Coming up with a cool chord progression is great, but what if it was dumb luck? Isn't it better if you could learn something about why those chords worked well together, and apply that lesson to other musical situations?

no. do you think the stones figured out why they were writing the successful songs they had back when they started out so they could duplicate those hits or do you think they just kept writing songs?
 
no. do you think the stones figured out why they were writing the successful songs they had back when they started out so they could duplicate those hits or do you think they just kept writing songs?

I'm pretty sure the Stones knew what they were doing. Richards made an entire career out of open-G tuning and hitting on to partial chords to imply chord changes.

It's not even a question of "duplicating" hits, really, as much as figuring out why something sounds good, and then keeping that in the back of your mind so you can use the same basic idea to make other things sound good.

I mean, consider the flip side of that. Richards had no idea what he was doing with a guitar, but by tuning strings at random and then randomly mashing his fingers around, he wrote 40 years worth of hits. I have a very hard time believing that (and I'm a HUGE stones fan).
 
12 notes, yes, but 12 notes that can be combined in an almost infinite series of combinations.

No. Your hand can only reach so far. On a guitar, you have to make chords work within the limits of your fretting hand. So the note possibilities aren't infinite. In fact, they're quite limited.

Assuming a simple 4-fret spread, you have 24 notes you can use, and they all repeat.
 
I mean, consider the flip side of that. Richards had no idea what he was doing with a guitar, but by tuning strings at random and then randomly mashing his fingers around, he wrote 40 years worth of hits. I have a very hard time believing that (and I'm a HUGE stones fan).

he didn't "tune his guitar randomly". he tuned to open chords much of the time. how hard is it to find the notes of a chord and tune the strings accordingly? not hard at all.

i think an understanding of a major scale is all the theory it takes to follow a 1-4-5 progression and rock out.
 
whatever. i don't care. you dorks keep practicing your scales and modes and i'll keep writing songs and rocking out.
 
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