How DO YOU mix?

[mixsit]

... Also when automating the compressor to a provide a smooth transition for volume. would that mean automating the threashold or mix/dry?
...Another thing. lets say the master buss is averaging at -1db then an electric guitar is added through the course of the song, would the aim then be to keep the master at around -1? turning down the other parts to make room for the electric guitar so there isnt such a large volume change, and shift of the mix? not talking about keeping everything so tight concerning the whole loudness war thing.

I have 100's of song recorded, ive never been able to get around the mixing part, sorry if I dont seem that clear in my questions

Yeah, all this stuff gets real obvious ...once you've been there. (and we all had to

For the guitar in the chorus' then, the question would be -for this song (mix, how you see it turning out..) when it comes in, is it supposed to build? = lower the whole mix (everywhere) to leave room for it.
Alternately, some element can come in that dominates what came before, or a whole lot of anything in between.

You've also (it seems by the question) got the cart before the horse in that boxing yourself in with the high mix level put you in the position of 'what do I do now? If the mix hadden't been maxed out (before it was ready) you likely may have just caried on. Headroom ..for another good reason.

Also when automating the compressor to a provide a smooth transition for volume. would that mean automating the threashold or mix/dry?

Threshold. Wet/dry on a comp equals parallel compression (maybe we can get KC to do that google thing again! ) ..that would be a fairly over specialized ..i.e. not the norm for a track insert.

 

[kcearl]

i love that google thing

 

[benherron.rrr]

It was a hypothetical scenario by the way. all the same after saying that I probably dont give myself enough head room. Alot of my songs seem to build up as they go along, for example I can start with just a piano playing, and by the end there will be a whole band in there (piano,drums, 2 electric guitars, bass, vocals and backing vocals). lets say I have the piano around -5 as the other parts are added in I would have to lower the level of the piano to create a little room for all the other parts. I do try to run before I walk as I generally give myself very high expectations. After reading a few books on mixing I sit on the computer feeling confident about what I am trying to do, and still end up at square one. Im not very book smart

I should of googled that. . . makes more sence

 

[grimtraveller]

I probably dont give myself enough head room. Alot of my songs seem to build up as they go along, for example I can start with just a piano playing, and by the end there will be a whole band in there (piano,drums, 2 electric guitars, bass, vocals and backing vocals). lets say I have the piano around -5 as the other parts are added in I would have to lower the level of the piano to create a little room for all the other parts.

Many of my songs have had a similar problem. In the old days, if I started playing a song part way through, I actually couldn't tell what the song was or where I was in it ! It was an incoherent jumble. Now I can identify the what and where so something has improved a little. But I find that at mixtime, there are occasions when one element has to die and that takes away the clutter. One other thing I sometimes do when there's many elements is start from the point where the whole 9 yards and kitchen sink are going for it and I work on that till it sounds OK. Then the rest of the piece should follow because if there's a build up, it's the noisy bit that you want to tie down and get sounding as clear as possible. It doesn't mean the rest is easy, but it's sometimes easier. Headroom is so important. Sometimes the discipline is crushing......Think of it like having a deathly poisonous spider on your arm that's gonna kill you if you move a muscle. Discipline is possible !!

 

[kcearl]

It was a hypothetical scenario by the way. all the same after saying that I probably dont give myself enough head room. Alot of my songs seem to build up as they go along, for example I can start with just a piano playing, and by the end there will be a whole band in there (piano,drums, 2 electric guitars, bass, vocals and backing vocals). lets say I have the piano around -5 as the other parts are added in I would have to lower the level of the piano to create a little room for all the other parts. I do try to run before I walk as I generally give myself very high expectations. After reading a few books on mixing I sit on the computer feeling confident about what I am trying to do, and still end up at square one. Im not very book smart

I should of googled that. . . makes more sence

you are guilty of pushing the faders...fader creep...everyone does at first


start mixing your first instrument at -14db say, then bring in the others to match, say you start with the kick, then bring in the bass, then the snare, then the vocals, then you find you cant hear the snare...dont increase the snares volume, cut the others...you'll be surprised at how much cutting things plays an importance...same with EQ...if it sounds like it needs more high frequencies try cutting low ones rather than pushing the gain on high ones


im not trying to stop you learning but mastering the fundamentals are the most important things..do it again and again...eventually one mix you'll just go "fuck me, thats it" that eureka moment is nirvana,(not the band )


like I said Im barely further on than most n00bs, but Ive had my eureka moment fairly recently, now Im ready to upgrade my gear and push on...

 

[benherron.rrr]

you are guilty of pushing the faders...fader creep...everyone does at first


start mixing your first instrument at -14db say, then bring in the others to match, say you start with the kick, then bring in the bass, then the snare, then the vocals, then you find you cant hear the snare...dont increase the snares volume, cut the others...you'll be surprised at how much cutting things plays an importance...same with EQ...if it sounds like it needs more high frequencies try cutting low ones rather than pushing the gain on high ones

Got it in one, Thats usually how I approach the process. Ive never really sat back and thourght of doing it that way. Do you record/mix your own material or other peoples? Do you find it hard not to be over critical?

 

[kcearl]

Got it in one, Thats usually how I approach the process. Ive never really sat back and thourght of doing it that way. Do you record/mix your own material or other peoples? Do you find it hard not to be over critical?

only my own, I find it hard to be critical as I enjoy the process so much and still count everything as part of learning... Im also pretty much in a niche when it comes to music here so I have far more leeway in what I produce...Id find it much harder here to produce rock or one of its variations as its what the majority knows..

I dont expect anyone to say "hey KC thats not a dubstep beat its not in triplet"...or "why are you using risers in a D&B track??"

kinda double edged but like I said the basics in mixing, and tracking a very similar..its just we shape sound in the mixing stage for rock guys most of thats done beforehand..imho of course

My biggest piece of advice is to get over the hurdle of not letting strangers hear your stuff until you reach this holy grail of perfection..I think getting it out there and getting feedback, good or bad, will help you grow..in skill and as a performer

 

[mixsit]

i love that google thing

Yeah.
I don't even want to know 'how.. keep it fresh' and all.

 

[mixsit]

.. there are occasions when one element has to die and that takes away the clutter.

..One other thing I sometimes do when there's many elements is start from the point where the whole 9 yards and kitchen sink are going for it and I work on that till it sounds OK. ...

'Couple of good ones there. 'Roughing it in, everything up, a bunch of bigger moves to see where things are landing.

 

[gecko zzed]

One of the hardest things to do, when you have an instrument in your hand, is to not play it. Consequently, when tracking, there is often way too much that's been recorded. Trying to make mixing sense of this becomes difficult; mixes tend to be dense and out of control.

But fortunately no harm comes from experimenting with cutting out stuff. If you've lost any sense of dynamic movement in a mix, and everything is competing for the headline, start pruning vigorously (sorry about mixed metaphors). Not only does this help you as a mixer, it also gives the listener a chance to come up for air.

 

[miroslav]

GZ is absolutely right...it's the old "less is more"...or another ways to say it (not sure who said this first)..."it's not the notes, but the space in-between that counts".

Of course...another way to K.I.S.S. is to NOT record too many tracks to begin with. IOW...it's about the pre-production rather than just tracking endlessly and saving all the decisions for the production.

Even when I'm just experimenting while tracking and working out my song during recording rather than in pre-production...there comes a point when some tracks will get tossed out...and by that, I mean removed/deleted/erased...etc...and not just put aside.
Contemplate on what are the important aspects of the song...and then remove all the excess.

 

[benherron.rrr]

Very good points, As a work alone on this songs usually start from a simple chord progression on piano or guitar, I then use the tracking stage to write the song as it is. often I set out with a nice slow song in mind but usually ends up being somthing a bit more upbeat.

Kc Yeah its really difficult letting people hearing my stuff. Im not the most confident of people, I often pull myself back from letting people hearing my stuff. I love the tracking stage its where I hear everything coming together in a song. Its one of the best if not the best feeling in the world, its mixing where I let myself down.

I think I set my sights too high, I love those songs where even after 100 times of listening to it you still pick out tiny melodies in the back ground. Maybe I should work on some simple singer songwritter tracks with 5-6 tracks before I dive in. Cutting things out seems to be the best way of adding more to a mix.

 

[kcearl]

Very good points, As a work alone on this songs usually start from a simple chord progression on piano or guitar, I then use the tracking stage to write the song as it is. often I set out with a nice slow song in mind but usually ends up being somthing a bit more upbeat.

Kc Yeah its really difficult letting people hearing my stuff. Im not the most confident of people, I often pull myself back from letting people hearing my stuff. I love the tracking stage its where I hear everything coming together in a song. Its one of the best if not the best feeling in the world, its mixing where I let myself down.

I think I set my sights too high, I love those songs where even after 100 times of listening to it you still pick out tiny melodies in the back ground. Maybe I should work on some simple singer songwritter tracks with 5-6 tracks before I dive in. Cutting things out seems to be the best way of adding more to a mix.

well like i said you either have to take the plunge and let people listen and help you or just be happy with personal projects, you'll grow slower though


I know people are saying make cuts in instruments, keep it simple, and thats true...but getting a full sound often involves many many layers....even my basic stuff may sound like around 8 instruments but projects are seldom less that 30 tracks nowadays, you hear the guitar stuff in the clinic and it sounds like one guitar yet there are actually five or more layers in there..

I read the making of vampire weekends "cousins" a very simple basic track with a basic band set up...there were 64 tracks involved in making that sound the way it did....thats the difference, when you start out projects are like around 12 tracks or something, thats part of the reason you hear things 100 listens down the line


Id say to you..take a track your relatively happy with, convert it to a 320kpbs mp3, host it here

http://www.dropbox.com/referrals/NTMxNDY4MDU5

now go to the clinic forum and listen to the top half a dozen tracks, leave honest comments (you still have ears regardless of your experience) then post your track and be prepared to have it taken apart...ask for criticism, take the advice, on mixing, not on changing your vision unless you welcome it, and see what you get out of it

I think you have to get over this hurdle at some point...and this is not a place of ridicule, even someone saying "this mix is awful, you obviously have no idea on how to use compression, take it back to zero and try this" it smarts a bit but it will help you understand why your mix is pissing you off



sorry if this sounds preachy, its not meant too..I think you already have a good attitude and that will help you improve far more than someone who thinks theyre king shit

 

[dintymoore]

... projects are seldom less that 30 tracks nowadays, you hear the guitar stuff in the clinic and it sounds like one guitar yet there are actually five or more layers in there...

I think my busiest song might be 20 or so tracks. I have lots of songs that are more like 5-6 tracks. I almost never layer stuff. No wonder everybody has so much trouble mixing. Christ! I'd need a shovel and lots of green garbage bags to mix 30+ tracks.

KC that Left Maui trumpet song I did was 11 tracks. No doubling. When I double I hear the harmonics disagreeing and it seems like in the end you can't hear anything. I'd rather just get 1 good sound.

 

[kcearl]

I think my busiest song might be 20 or so tracks. I have lots of songs that are more like 5-6 tracks. I almost never layer stuff. No wonder everybody has so much trouble mixing. Christ! I'd need a shovel and lots of green garbage bags to mix 30+ tracks.

lol....


I think i have around three kicks and three bass tracks layered just to begin with....what is this "mud" everyone keeps mentioning

 

[IndustrialOkie]

I read in a basic mixing primer that in general the order goes something like:

Drums.

Bass.

Guitar.

Synth/Horn etc.

Vocals.

I'm somewhat comfortable with mixing my own projects; but a full band or just drums- forget it.

 

[dintymoore]

... I think i have around three kicks and three bass tracks layered just to begin with....what is this "mud" everyone keeps mentioning

That's not mud, that's sewage.

There was an album that came out in 1958 that changed everything - "Live at the Pershing Lounge" by Ahmad Jamal. It was recorded at the Pershing Hotel in Chicago live. Ahmad's style had a profound influence on musicians. That's where Miles Davis got his approach from, he said that in his autobiography.

It's about learning to play rests with the same intensity as you play notes.

 

[kcearl]

no rests for the wicked!

 

[benherron.rrr]

well like i said you either have to take the plunge and let people listen and help you or just be happy with personal projects, you'll grow slower though


I know people are saying make cuts in instruments, keep it simple, and thats true...but getting a full sound often involves many many layers....even my basic stuff may sound like around 8 instruments but projects are seldom less that 30 tracks nowadays, you hear the guitar stuff in the clinic and it sounds like one guitar yet there are actually five or more layers in there..

I read the making of vampire weekends "cousins" a very simple basic track with a basic band set up...there were 64 tracks involved in making that sound the way it did....thats the difference, when you start out projects are like around 12 tracks or something, thats part of the reason you hear things 100 listens down the line


Id say to you..take a track your relatively happy with, convert it to a 320kpbs mp3, host it here

http://www.dropbox.com/referrals/NTMxNDY4MDU5

now go to the clinic forum and listen to the top half a dozen tracks, leave honest comments (you still have ears regardless of your experience) then post your track and be prepared to have it taken apart...ask for criticism, take the advice, on mixing, not on changing your vision unless you welcome it, and see what you get out of it

I think you have to get over this hurdle at some point...and this is not a place of ridicule, even someone saying "this mix is awful, you obviously have no idea on how to use compression, take it back to zero and try this" it smarts a bit but it will help you understand why your mix is pissing you off



sorry if this sounds preachy, its not meant too..I think you already have a good attitude and that will help you improve far more than someone who thinks theyre king shit

Thats actually brilliant advice! Given me a little hope yet KC Ill definatly give that ago and post some stuff on here. when I get a little more than 5 mins to do some music work that is!

I much prefer musicians who may not be at the top of their class but can throw all their emotions into the song. Like some metal guitarist who prides him self on being able to sweep perfectly and play 25 different notes a second in perfect time, and a guitarist who doesnt know what sweeping is but can play a 5 note solo that makes your hair stand on end. Thats why I love blues, not the most challanging but one of the most emotive.

 

[kcearl]

Thats actually brilliant advice! Given me a little hope yet KC Ill definatly give that ago and post some stuff on here. when I get a little more than 5 mins to do some music work that is!

I much prefer musicians who may not be at the top of their class but can throw all their emotions into the song. Like some metal guitarist who prides him self on being able to sweep perfectly and play 25 different notes a second in perfect time, and a guitarist who doesnt know what sweeping is but can play a 5 note solo that makes your hair stand on end. Thats why I love blues, not the most challanging but one of the most emotive.

exactly....emotion and passion trump technically so many times in musics history...but it has to be good enough quality for folks to want to listen

dont rush, make sure you start to build a rapport with the guys in there first, so many drop a track in there and go away, then wonder why they had 40 views and only one comment, its a community, it takes participation...besides i have the feeling you are here for the long term and not just some kid with cracked waves and a fender squire (though I do have a squire meself lol)