Whoopysnorp
New member
The time has come for me to learn how to mix vocals better. I'm having trouble with vocals getting in the way of the music--I want both to be heard. What EQ steps should I take?
D
doulos
New member
hi there are two places of theory here that need to be adressed are you placing the vocal? or building the mix around the vocal cause equing will be drasticly diffrent and belive it or not there is no right or wrong answer for this depends on the syle and the mood of the producer filling this role countless times my self its jsut a matter of personal taste but lets look a t a few things the vocal should be the focal point of your mix and your music its the most important second is drums as a producer i prefer to have a live natural vocal with a lot of energy and for me id cut around and compress back the mix rather then the vocals and id space my mix to place the vocal better concentrating again on keeping the vocalas natural as posible that just my tastes hope this helps a lil
Blue Bear Sound
New member
Hmmm......... 
Sennheiser
New member
That's the longest sentence I've ever seen.
Whoopysnorp
New member
Sennheiser said:That's the longest sentence I've ever seen.
That's just what I was gonna say.
Anyway, 'space my mix'? That doesn't mean much to me. Explain yourself.
D
doulos
New member
ill work on my grammer sorry 
spaceing your mix in example
stero seperation, pushing things out that could be in the center or to close to the center. A good start is guitars left right 20 20 or 10 and 2. The only thing in the main center that i know of should be kick snare bass and vocal all can be kept in order with eq and
compression. Then space your mix ohh some killer advice cut the lows at 100-180 2.5-3.6 k slightly and boost 16k- 20k through
the roof works for me well not through the roof just below
sounding un natural thats a good starter to a great vocal track
better?
spaceing your mix in example stero seperation, pushing things out that could be in the center or to close to the center. A good start is guitars left right 20 20 or 10 and 2. The only thing in the main center that i know of should be kick snare bass and vocal all can be kept in order with eq and
compression. Then space your mix ohh some killer advice cut the lows at 100-180 2.5-3.6 k slightly and boost 16k- 20k through
the roof works for me well not through the roof just below
sounding un natural thats a good starter to a great vocal track
better?
Lt. Bob
Spread the Daf!
What he said.Blue Bear Sound said:Hmmm.........
Blue Bear Sound
New member
er... no... the start of a great vocal track is a great vocalist, in a great room, with a great mic - placed properly, connected to a great pre......doulos said:
And how can you possibly make generic statements about EQ boosts/cuts??? It all depends on the track itself.......
And if you have to EQ ANYTHING "thru the roof" then it hasn't been tracked properly...........
Dude..... seriously.... don't give advice until your ears get a bit more "golden"............... it just gives us more work having to do picking up after you!
Whoopysnorp
New member
How about you, Blue Bear? Can you give me any advice on what to look for?
participant
New member
gotta feelin' this could be Blue Bear's "Big Thread" or "Sonusman" thread ... if he feels up to it 
Chad
Chad
Michael Jones
New member
Why is it that so many, ummm.... lesser experienced tracker/mixers fail to realize that there is also a CUT on the EQ?
If your boosting highs like that I can assure you it is going to sound un-natural; not to mention what Blue said about it not being tracked properly.
Back to Whoopysnort's original question "How do you carve out a space for vocals [in the mix]."
You do it with levels and panning. Many times the process of adjusting levels is by its very nature a dynamic process. There's no single setting that is going to give you the sound you're looking for all the time; not even within the context of one song. Adjustments are made during the course of the entire song, and those adjustments are saved as fader animations.
To "carve" out a space for vocals, you need to answer a few questions first, for yourself, and for us:
What's being featured in this song? Is it the vocals, or is it the instruments? One instrument, like an acoustic guitar solo, or several instruments like an orchestra or a rock band? Does/will the "feature" trade off between vocals, and an instrumental solo? Are the vocals tenor, bass, soprano? Think about the physical arrangement of the instruments. Drums center and rear. Bass guitar on the right, rhythm on the left, lead front and center? Vocal out in front of that? You should have an idea of all of these even before you begin tracking - let alone mixing.
Are there any instruments or vocals that are in the same musical range? Are these instruments competing sonically for the same space? For the same tonality?
These are all things you'll need to consider when mixing. If you could give us a little more background on your project, we may be able to help further, but as I said before, there's no single setting that we can tell you to use for vocals in a mix.
Blue Bear Sound
New member
In terms of the mix... if a vocal track is giving you "placement" problems, then back off all faders of everything else and START with the vocal fader up -- then build up the rest of the tracks around that..........
Actually before you even do that you should listen to your mix with ALL faders up just to see what you've got... you should be able to hear where things are fighting and where they aren't....
Where there's something getting in the way of something else, you'll have to decide on using EQ to tame one or the other (or both), or even whether one part needs to be there at all... (ie, do you REALLY need those 5 guitars playing at the same time in one spot???)
Generally, a good mix doesn't have too many elements going on at the same time... more than four and you've pretty much got a mess....
A mix will contain a Foundation element -- the rhythm section... Usually bass/drums but may also include rhy gtr or keyboards...
You'll have a Pad element -- sustained notes/chords - keyboards or gtr powerchords...
There's also the Rhythm element -- any instrument (or group of instruments) that plays a counter-rhythm to the Foundation....
There's the Lead element -- solos or lead vocals....
And finally the Fills element -- notes played in between lead lines (can be fills or a signature riff...)
It may help you conceptualize you mix by thinking within these "elements" and containing your tracks appropriately.... many times the cause of track fighting is simply too many tracks going at the same time!
Just because Aerosmith used 40 tracks of snare drum doesn't mean you should!
Aside from this, you also have EQ and level to adjust tracks so they work together.... low male vocal can often fight with high-bass to low-mid frequencies and so you need to look in this range to see if anything needs taming....
Also keep in mind that the human voice is the most recognizeable natural element in a mix, and as such, any EQ done to it is very distinuishable to most listeners --- unless done subtly! You're better off carving space from other tracks than fucking over the vocal with EQ........... all the more reason to have tracked the vocal properly in the first place!
Actually before you even do that you should listen to your mix with ALL faders up just to see what you've got... you should be able to hear where things are fighting and where they aren't....
Where there's something getting in the way of something else, you'll have to decide on using EQ to tame one or the other (or both), or even whether one part needs to be there at all... (ie, do you REALLY need those 5 guitars playing at the same time in one spot???)
Generally, a good mix doesn't have too many elements going on at the same time... more than four and you've pretty much got a mess....
A mix will contain a Foundation element -- the rhythm section... Usually bass/drums but may also include rhy gtr or keyboards...
You'll have a Pad element -- sustained notes/chords - keyboards or gtr powerchords...
There's also the Rhythm element -- any instrument (or group of instruments) that plays a counter-rhythm to the Foundation....
There's the Lead element -- solos or lead vocals....
And finally the Fills element -- notes played in between lead lines (can be fills or a signature riff...)
It may help you conceptualize you mix by thinking within these "elements" and containing your tracks appropriately.... many times the cause of track fighting is simply too many tracks going at the same time!
Just because Aerosmith used 40 tracks of snare drum doesn't mean you should!
Aside from this, you also have EQ and level to adjust tracks so they work together.... low male vocal can often fight with high-bass to low-mid frequencies and so you need to look in this range to see if anything needs taming....
Also keep in mind that the human voice is the most recognizeable natural element in a mix, and as such, any EQ done to it is very distinuishable to most listeners --- unless done subtly! You're better off carving space from other tracks than fucking over the vocal with EQ........... all the more reason to have tracked the vocal properly in the first place!
Whoopysnorp
New member
Thanks for the advice. I was more referring to EQing the other instruments around the vocal rather than vice-versa, anyway. I'll try putting up the vocal and then putting up the rest of it. The song has a simple guitar/bass/drums arrangement. I wasn't going to double the guitar, but I may yet, if I'm feeling brave (it's a murderous guitar part). That may help me out.
Blue Bear Sound
New member
Naw -- my big thread was remote drum tracking about a year and a half ago or so....participant said:gotta feelin' this could be Blue Bear's "Big Thread" or "Sonusman" thread ... if he feels up to it
Chad
I've aged since then and can't type that long anymore!!!!!!!!!!!
Sennheiser
New member
This is kind of where I thought he was going with this, but I didn't want to jump in a be proved a dunderhead.
When I write and arrange I make sure that no two instruments including the vocal is stepping on another. That's easy to do when you are doing everything. Not so easy when you may be recording someone elses group.
I think a good arrangement will eliminate a lot of your problems.
DeadPoet
carpe diem
Blue Bear Sound said:Just because Aerosmith used 40 tracks of snare drum doesn't mean you should!
Errrr... 40?? Is he such a sloppy player they have a separate track for each snare hit, or did the producer got payed per track
GrtZ,
Herwig
V
volltreffer
Imply depressed
High!
Although a lot of people might kill me for this tip - you might try to compress the vocals and maybe the other tracks need some compression, too. Alas I don't know anything about your music style, so I'll describe mine...
I do some punk rock style sound (drums, distorted rhythm guitar , second distorted guitar, bass and vocals), and there I had the problem that my voice was either killing everything or being killed. Then I compressed the vocal track rather hard. Now there only problems with my rhythm guitar track, that build up some low when being played muted. I don't know why - perhaps it was a tracking issue, or the speakers of my guitarist, but that phenomenon is always there: when he plays muted 16th, there is some low freqs building up. Cutting the frequencies killed the sound. So I compressed the guitar with a rather slow attack, and suddenly the two tracks would coexist...
But keep in mind I'm just a stupid punkrocker, so YMMV,
Axel
Although a lot of people might kill me for this tip - you might try to compress the vocals and maybe the other tracks need some compression, too. Alas I don't know anything about your music style, so I'll describe mine...
I do some punk rock style sound (drums, distorted rhythm guitar , second distorted guitar, bass and vocals), and there I had the problem that my voice was either killing everything or being killed. Then I compressed the vocal track rather hard. Now there only problems with my rhythm guitar track, that build up some low when being played muted. I don't know why - perhaps it was a tracking issue, or the speakers of my guitarist, but that phenomenon is always there: when he plays muted 16th, there is some low freqs building up. Cutting the frequencies killed the sound. So I compressed the guitar with a rather slow attack, and suddenly the two tracks would coexist...
But keep in mind I'm just a stupid punkrocker, so YMMV,
Axel
D
doulos
New member
my ears more golden? ok let me ask you a question witout eq how can you get "air" into a track? please id love to hear this and general eqing was a starters point for a good vocal and i dont know how much time you spent in the studio blue but i have spent a ton of time and this is general vocal practice in major studios say ummmmmmmm fame studio? and also sound kitchen in tn just to start with and i do bleive the question concerned eq rather then recording techniques but id love to hear your feed back on the subject
D
doulos
New member
i love how when ppl see the lil newbie sign to your lil bbs they think the engineer is a newbie or inexsperenced that is so funny and typical further more on my "blanket eq statment" what eq besides the mention of 3.2 to 3.6k actully effects the vocal range?your male voclas will barley effect 100 hrz at the deepest of levels so the 100 -180 is for sonic rumble not to effect the vocal track even your highest female vocal minus mirhaia carrie and a few others will ever get above 18k typicily and boosting this dosent effect the actull vocal but just the effect of spaceiousness thats what its entended for and 3.2 -3.6 k is known to be percing to the ears you you pull this back slighty for comfort reasons at times again an eq question would be best answered with a general eq starting point as this was an eq question!!!! id go even further and say id never cut a vocal track without a pop filter or a roll off of some kind in the lows is that to a blanket statment? or just good plain common sence?
G
geekgurl
New member
Exellent post, Blue Bear! Since I've ventured down the road of improving my sound (and I'm still new enough at all this to hear huge differences anytime I finally do one more thing right), I will also add something:
I focus on the vocal first -- like BB said, it is recognizable and any modification you do to vox really stands out (doesn't mean you might not want to compress or whatever, but if you do it to the point you can really hear it in the mix, that definitely sounds like an effect, not merely an enhancement). Then I place everything around that, via volume levels and panning. THEN, if/when I EQ, I try cutting rather than boosting to not blow all my headroom. AND, except for the very low end on electric bass, I only cut maximum of 3 dB. I started doing this on the advice of someone experienced on one of these BBSs, because whoever it was said, "until you know what you're doing, ..." Well, not to say I know what I'm doing, but I have a better idea. And guess what? Now, 90 percent of the time any adjustment I do is a cut and it's less than 3 dB.
Then when I finally get MP3s up you can all listen and bash me and say how much my mixes suck.
OK doulos, to answer your question:
Well, Bear is an experienced and professional engineer, and I'm sure he'll tell you where he's coming from.
I don't know what gear you're using now, and I don't know if my input is going to help, but I've found that better mics, better preamps, and recording at 24 bit through better converters -- in short, the best signal chain I could afford -- got me more "air" in my mixes. I haven't been in LOTS of pro studios, but I've been in a few (some nationally/internationally acclaimed ones, even). And I've never seen any engineer summarily max out (or even close) that 16K-20K range. That's a very interesting practice. Do they do that on all tracks or just vocals? On all vocals or just specific types?
I focus on the vocal first -- like BB said, it is recognizable and any modification you do to vox really stands out (doesn't mean you might not want to compress or whatever, but if you do it to the point you can really hear it in the mix, that definitely sounds like an effect, not merely an enhancement). Then I place everything around that, via volume levels and panning. THEN, if/when I EQ, I try cutting rather than boosting to not blow all my headroom. AND, except for the very low end on electric bass, I only cut maximum of 3 dB. I started doing this on the advice of someone experienced on one of these BBSs, because whoever it was said, "until you know what you're doing, ..." Well, not to say I know what I'm doing, but I have a better idea. And guess what? Now, 90 percent of the time any adjustment I do is a cut and it's less than 3 dB.
Then when I finally get MP3s up you can all listen and bash me and say how much my mixes suck.
OK doulos, to answer your question:
doulos said:
Well, Bear is an experienced and professional engineer, and I'm sure he'll tell you where he's coming from.
I don't know what gear you're using now, and I don't know if my input is going to help, but I've found that better mics, better preamps, and recording at 24 bit through better converters -- in short, the best signal chain I could afford -- got me more "air" in my mixes. I haven't been in LOTS of pro studios, but I've been in a few (some nationally/internationally acclaimed ones, even). And I've never seen any engineer summarily max out (or even close) that 16K-20K range. That's a very interesting practice. Do they do that on all tracks or just vocals? On all vocals or just specific types?