How do these re-amped guitar tracks sound?

[Greg_L]

This is probably what a lot of people said when a lot of things were replaced by technology
I'm telling you, there is probably a metal record out there right now that is all digitally created and we don't even know it because it's so convincing.

I doubt it. I'd shit a parakeet if I heard a modern metal album from a modern band that actually sounds convincing. They all sound like the same plastic typewriter to me with some mallrat dweeb scream-growling his vocals. Yeah, I might be biased, I despise metal.

But I'm with Rami. I enjoy playing, and being able to play what I record, and record what I play. I like the genuine aspect of it - and frankly I think real things just sound better. I'm still waiting for the day when a drum program can make a crash cymbal not sound stupid. Some amp sims are really nice, some are shit. Same with amps. In the right hands a good sim will sound fantastic. But in the right hands a real amp will kill a good sim. Technology only replaces real people in music when the real person can't do what they want to do. And that's fine. I know not everyone can bash drums and crank amps. But they make up all sorts of rationalizations for using fake everything. 99 times out of 100 those same people would kill for a real drummer, real amps, or the ability to do either.

 

[ashcat_lt]

I agree. It serves no good purpose.

Some people get pissy about double-posts, like if you post something, and then have something to add, but nobody has replied since your last post, so you edit the original rather than making a new one...

TBH, I didn't listen to this because I frankly figured there were plenty other people to offer opinions in which you'd put more stock than mine, but I have some questions.

1) When you say that you recorded the guitar via DI, what does this mean? Did you plug into the Instrument input on a preamp or interface, or...??? Basically, where did the gain come from to begin with?

B) When you turned down the output by that 14db on the other tracks, you did that in the DAW? Was there something wrong with the results of that, or why did you feel the need to spend money on a box to accomplish the same thing?

 

[RAMI]

TBH, I didn't listen to this because I frankly figured there were plenty other people to offer opinions in which you'd put more stock than mine, but I have some questions.

Actually, I respect your opinion on all things guitar. You certainly know more than I do. Doesn't matter, though, in this case. These tracks are about a week old and I got the box since then.

When you say that you recorded the guitar via DI, what does this mean? Did you plug into the Instrument input on a preamp or interface, or...??? Basically, where did the gain come from to begin with?

Yes, on the TASCAM US-1800, Inputs 9 and 10 are 1/4" inputs that you can switch to Line or Guitar. So, I plug my guitar into channel 9, switch it to Guitar, and record. In REAPER, I insert a sim on the channel I'm recording on, and play while hearing the sim, but not recording the sim. So, I end up with a dry, un-affected signal straight out of my guitar.

When you turned down the output by that 14db on the other tracks, you did that in the DAW? Was there something wrong with the results of that, or why did you feel the need to spend money on a box to accomplish the same thing?

Yeah, I thought it was better, but there must have been something wrong with the impedance or something because I thought it was ok, but I realized after that it was still sending a way too hot signal into my amp. Even with the gain on 3 on my amp, it was just as distorted as if I had the gain on 10. The reamp box definitely makes a difference. The amp is now getting the same signal it would get if I plug my guitar into it.

 

[ashcat_lt]

Actually, I respect your opinion on all things guitar. You certainly know more than I do.

I do know a bit about how and why electric guitars work and sound the way that they do, and how they interact with other devices in the chain, but I'm not sure how much I know about anybody else's idea of "good tone"...

Yes, on the TASCAM US-1800, Inputs 9 and 10 are 1/4" inputs that you can switch to Line or Guitar. So, I plug my guitar into channel 9, switch it to Guitar, and record. In REAPER, I insert a sim on the channel I'm recording on, and play while hearing the sim, but not recording the sim. So, I end up with a dry, un-affected signal straight out of my guitar.

The guitar input on the US1800 adds about 8db of gain all by itself, and then it has a gain knob, which would be unity (plus the 8db...) when turned all the way down. This is a little less than the 14 db, but kinda in the ballpark.

Yeah, I thought it was better, but there must have been something wrong with the impedance or something because I thought it was ok, but I realized after that it was still sending a way too hot signal into my amp. Even with the gain on 3 on my amp, it was just as distorted as if I had the gain on 10. The reamp box definitely makes a difference. The amp is now getting the same signal it would get if I plug my guitar into it.

I'm still a little confused on the output end, though. Are you saying that you attenuated 14db in the DAW and still thought it was sending too hot of a signal? Or did you just try to twiddle the knobs on the amp to get it to compensate? There's no impedance issue here, it's all about getting the levels right, and that should be as easy as turning down the hardware send somewhere in the DAW. I was curious if you found some lack in tone, or excess noise or something.

 

[RAMI]

The guitar input on the US1800 adds about 8db of gain all by itself, and then it has a gain knob, which would be unity (plus the 8db...) when turned all the way down. This is a little less than the 14 db, but kinda in the ballpark.

Interesting, I didn't know that. Well, that probably explains why I had to turn down the output (or is it input) knob on the reamp box to get a signal the same volume as plugging my guitar into my amp. Good thing the box has that knob because I was having trouble getting a clean sound without it.

Are you saying that you attenuated 14db in the DAW and still thought it was sending too hot of a signal?

Yes. The tracks I posted in the first post of this thread have an over-saturated, creamy sound that I couldn't get rid of even with the fader at -14 in my DAW (REAPER).

I was curious if you found some lack in tone, or excess noise or something.

I didn't find a lack in tone, but the signal was way hotter than plugging my guitar straight in. If it's just a matter of matching the level, then I guess I would have had to turn that fader down to way lower than -14.

Either way, I have the box, it does what I want it to do, my levels are good, and it sounds the way it should.

So now I'm wondering, though. If it's just a matter of turning down the level coming out of the DAW to get the right level going into my amp, why do these boxes even exist? Or, is that what you're trying to figure out, too?

 

[ashcat_lt]

Interesting, I didn't know that.

It's kind of obscured in the specs, partly because they specify the guitar input in dbV, and the line ins are in dbu, so you have to convert first, but the difference between those two in all of the specs (nominal, minimum, maxium) is 8db.

Yes. The tracks I posted in the first post of this thread have an over-saturated, creamy sound that I couldn't get rid of even with the fader at -14 in my DAW (REAPER).

Thanks, I know it probably feels like you've repeated it a number of times, but I wasn't seeing it explicitly stated, or there was conflicting implications, or I was stoned and at work...

The 14db bothers me though. Why would it need more than 8db attenuation to make up for the boost from when you pushed the Guitar button? Did you turn the gain knob to get "good recording levels", and maybe make the amp sim sound right?

So now I'm wondering, though. If it's just a matter of turning down the level coming out of the DAW to get the right level going into my amp, why do these boxes even exist? Or, is that what you're trying to figure out, too?

Ha! That question has gotten me into a number of flame wars in other forums. The best I can say for the popularity (and price) of the box is that it is more likely to work reasonably well in more situations. Much like a DI, it's never as good as straight wire, but it will almost always work, even in cases where straight wire can't. IMNSHO, the main reason that both of these boxes are so good at this, and why they are so popular, is that transformer isolation is a near-foolproof to avoid ground loop noise without having to try. But I'm not going back down that rabbit hole here...

I'm going to call this professional curiosity. Because of the fact that I have always been perfectly happy with amp simulations (be they analog or digital), I have a whole lot of experience with the guitar to interface side of this equation, and pretty much nothing but theory on the interface to amp side. For the same reason, I don't have any real pressing interest in proving my own hypothesis on the matter, nor do I own a reamp box. I could test with the "reversed DI" thing, I suppose... You, on the other hand, have a bit of (in)vested interest in whether or not the thing makes a real difference for the better. You have everything you need to answer the question you've posed, and what like 30 days to decide?

 

[RAMI]

^^^^I'm sure you're right about everything you're saying. But, not being as knowledgeable and confident in my technical ability, I'm going to keep the box. I got the box, it's plugged in, it works, that's all I need to know.

One thing, though. That "14db" is a number I came up with, and it ended up not being accurate anyway. I thought at the time that it solved my problem, but it didn't. The signal was definitely, without a doubt still too hot. I don't know what the right number to turn down the signal would have been, but like I said, at 14db it was still WAAAYYYY too hot and overloading the amp. So, we might be talking 20db, 24db??? I really don't know.