How do I reduce distortion if my recording goes over 0 db?

[danbs10]

Hi, I am recording acoustic guitar using Adobe Audition CS5.
My playing style is predominantly finger picking with the occasional strum.
The problem is that finger picking is alot quieter than strumming, so when I am finger picking it is recording at roughly -3 db but when I throw in the occasional strum it goes way way over 0 db and when I play it back it sounds distorted and horrible.
How can I work around this?

many thanks

Dan

 

[RAMI]

There's no need to record that hot. Get your finger-picking level way down to like -12db and your strumming won't clip.

It might sound like -12db (believe it or not, I'd actually record lower than that, but I don't want to freak you out ) is really low if you come from the analog world where recording as hot as possible without clipping is the norm. But in the digital world, you don't need or want to go anywhere near 0db.

 

[maestro_dmc]

Move the Mic about 3 inches further away, try it again, rinse, repeat.

 

[Massive Master]

is really low if you come from the analog world where recording as hot as possible without clipping is the norm. But in the digital world, you don't need or want to go anywhere near 0db.

For clarity -- Even in analog, you're generally shooting for somewhere around line level (0dBVU). Driving something really hard was hitting at +3 or +4dBVU -- You'd melt through the tape much hotter than that - and you were still far off from actually clipping (the failure of) the circuitry.

In digital, it's really no different -- You're still shooting for something around line level. But line level (0dBVU) in digital is around -18dBFS (depending on your converters, could be a little more/little less).

So having signals hitting normally around -3dBFS is anywhere from "sort of" to "severely" overdriving the preamp. Running it right on the edge of just plain nastiness.

Assuming that the preamp can go 20dB above line level before complete failure, if your line level is -18dBFS, when you're clipping the converter (again, you should never even be in the same ZIP code as "clipping" digitally), you're very likely also clipping the preamp.

I know RAMI doesn't want to "freak you out" but then I will. Back it down. Way down. WAAAAAYYY down -- just to be where you should be. I'd be peaking no higher than -12dBFS. And only on a sharp strum. Fingerpicking, probably bouncing around -20dBFS (which is a fine and healthy level). Keep in mind here (again, assuming a -18dBFS reference level) that by the time you're hitting -12dBFS, that circuit is running at 200% of the voltage is was spec'd at.

More here if you're bored: Proper Audio Recording Levels | Rants, Articles | MASSIVE Mastering

On the bright side, it's very likely that your whole concept of "sound quality" is about to change rather drastically...

 

[RAMI]

I know RAMI doesn't want to "freak you out" but then I will. Back it down. Way down. WAAAAAYYY down -- just to be where you should be. I'd be peaking no higher than -12dBFS. And only on a sharp strum. Fingerpicking, probably bouncing around -20dBFS .

Stop it man!!! You're freaking me out!!!

 

[ido1957]

Record low and then use automation to even out the levels.

 

[punkin]

For clarity -- Even in analog, you're generally shooting for somewhere around line level (0dBVU). Driving something really hard was hitting at +3 or +4dBVU -- You'd melt through the tape much hotter than that - and you were still far off from actually clipping (the failure of) the circuitry.

In digital, it's really no different -- You're still shooting for something around line level. But line level (0dBVU) in digital is around -18dBFS (depending on your converters, could be a little more/little less).

So having signals hitting normally around -3dBFS is anywhere from "sort of" to "severely" overdriving the preamp. Running it right on the edge of just plain nastiness.

Assuming that the preamp can go 20dB above line level before complete failure, if your line level is -18dBFS, when you're clipping the converter (again, you should never even be in the same ZIP code as "clipping" digitally), you're very likely also clipping the preamp.

I know RAMI doesn't want to "freak you out" but then I will. Back it down. Way down. WAAAAAYYY down -- just to be where you should be. I'd be peaking no higher than -12dBFS. And only on a sharp strum. Fingerpicking, probably bouncing around -20dBFS (which is a fine and healthy level). Keep in mind here (again, assuming a -18dBFS reference level) that by the time you're hitting -12dBFS, that circuit is running at 200% of the voltage is was spec'd at.

More here if you're bored: Proper Audio Recording Levels | Rants, Articles | MASSIVE Mastering

On the bright side, it's very likely that your whole concept of "sound quality" is about to change rather drastically...

...Massive John...thanks for that write up. Well done and easy to understand. I would also like to thank you for that link. Some of the tastiest reading I've sampled in a long time.

 

[aaronmcoleman]

I freaked myself out, the last couple of things I've done have been -24 to -18 average!

 

[GONZO-X]

once you've clipped your convertors, move back to square one, and start over.

 

[mixsit]

once you've clipped your convertors, move back to square one, and start over.

..He means start under, -but not over!

oops forgot the little guys here..

 

[GONZO-X]

i call it 'crunchy time'

 

[Lt. Bob]

For clarity -- Even in analog, .......................................................

On the bright side, it's very likely that your whole concept of "sound quality" is about to change rather drastically...

that brings up something I'm curious about.
I record to a stand alone digital recorder (Fostex D-1624) ..... other than that ...... EVERYTHING I do is analog including mixing.
Now ...... I've read a bunch of these threads about proper levels and at least one of the reasons ya'll tell them to keep it down has to do with some 'summing' thing ya'll do when mixing in the digital box. My understanding is that it all adds up together and you need to leave lots of headroom so you don't overload the summing sub (pardon my gobbled digital-speak ..... you know what I mean)

Does that somehow apply to me as I mix everything thru an analog board? Remember ...... no summing going on here ..... simply analog signals thru an analog board into a mixdown deck of one kind or another.

I've always assumed that as long as individual channels weren't clipping and I set levels when I mixed so nothing is overloading there either and the final mix was all clear, then that was fine just as in the all analog days.
Am I right?
Or is there some reason I should also start tracking at a lower level?

I usually track maybe -6 ..... -8 ........ right around there.
I NEVER allow it to go into the red.
Since I mix in a totally analog way does that make my method ok?

 

[bouldersoundguy]

Does that somehow apply to me as I mix everything thru an analog board? Remember ...... no summing going on here ..... simply analog signals thru an analog board into a mixdown deck of one kind or another.

It's still summing, but with analog voltages rather than binary numbers. Analog buses (main mix bus, submix group buses, aux buses) are all summing points in the mixer. You want the voltages going into a bus to be in the right range to minimize distortion and the buildup of noise.

 

[Lt. Bob]

It's still summing, but with analog voltages rather than binary numbers. Analog buses (main mix bus, submix group buses, aux buses) are all summing points in the mixer. You want the voltages going into a bus to be in the right range to minimize distortion and the buildup of noise.

of course ..... and I understand analog mixing very well having done it for 40 years.

But my question is more specific.

Assuming I get all my gains along the path set correctly ( I do) and have everything at the optimum levels to have minimal noise/distortion ( I do), is there any reason tracking at -12 is better than -6 for me specifically?
I understand basically no one else does it this way and it might not apply to anyone but me.
But making the assumption that everything else is set perfect ..... what would be the advantage to me, if any, of tracking at a lower level?

I'm just idly curious about this.

 

[bouldersoundguy]

of course ..... and I understand analog mixing very well having done it for 40 years.

Didn't mean to sound condescending or anything, just answering the question I read. Sometimes I'm so literal I think I have Asperger syndrome.

But my question is more specific.

Assuming I get all my gains along the path set correctly ( I do) and have everything at the optimum levels to have minimal noise/distortion ( I do), is there any reason tracking at -12 is better than -6 for me specifically?

If -6dBFS is where your digital signal ends up when you have your analog side right then that may be fine. At least you won't be digitizing a signal with preventable analog distortion. It's also probable that there is some hidden headroom above what the meters show, so you could actually be tracking at -9dBFS peak when the meter says -6. If your analog side is clean, you aren't clipping the converters and you aren't using analog emulating plugins then I don't see that -6dBFS peaks on the recorder are anything to worry about.

 

[Lt. Bob]

Didn't mean to sound condescending or anything, just answering the question I read. Sometimes I'm so literal I think I have Asperger syndrome.


.

that's ok ..... I understood that. That's why i simply added more info and got a bit more specific.
Thanks for the response.

 

[Massive Master]

Assuming I get all my gains along the path set correctly ( I do) and have everything at the optimum levels to have minimal noise/distortion ( I do), is there any reason tracking at -12 is better than -6 for me specifically?

Assuming your interface is calibrated much lower (I'd think it would be closer to -18dBFS), tracking at -12dBFS would be putting you at around 200% of spec -- Probably not "dangerous" but definitely closer to ideal than -6dBFS...

 

[Lt. Bob]

Assuming your interface is calibrated much lower (I'd think it would be closer to -18dBFS), tracking at -12dBFS would be putting you at around 200% of spec -- Probably not "dangerous" but definitely closer to ideal than -6dBFS...

I don't have an interface.

I do absolutely nothing whatsoever on a computer with the sole exception of the recorder which has nothing on it other than inputs and outputs for all 16channels.

 

[mixsit]

... analog including mixing.
Now ...... I've read a bunch of these threads about proper levels and at least one of the reasons ya'll tell them to keep it down has to do with some 'summing' thing ya'll do when mixing in the digital box. My understanding is that it all adds up together and you need to leave lots of headroom so you don't overload the summing sub ...

In general, the idea (part of it at least) is reasonable record levels, good for the analog side of the A/D, then leading to reasonable initial levels in the mix (the DAW mix' likely has tones of headroom that doesn't exist in your mixer), but 'plugs and other process ITB' may not. Thus it was 'treat your digi recording and mix like it was analog (same rules of thumb') and never have to wonder or get boxed into some possible sonic gotchas'.

Funny thing is all of them digi 'norms- from the A/D voltages on out to the other end at the D/A's -were modeled from analog line level' in the first place.

Does that somehow apply to me as I mix everything thru an analog board? ..

So.. yep. Full circle there.
Hell we're the ones (ITB) that get to get away with a +20 mix or what ever and pull it back down into line right before the two bus..

There are some variations as to cal points for 'line level = -X dbfs for your A/Ds (and some are adjustable etc..), but that's where we see these 'line level (RMS or vu, not peak) = -20 to -18dbfs and such.

I've always assumed that as long as individual channels weren't clipping and I set levels when I mixed so nothing is overloading there either and the final mix was all clear, then that was fine just as in the all analog days.
Am I right?
Or is there some reason I should also start tracking at a lower level?

I usually track maybe -6 ..... -8 ........ right around there.
I NEVER allow it to go into the red.

If that's 'highest peak, it's pretty close to normal- percussion? Sustained instruments- that's hot.
Last question might be regarding the board then, and where is the mix landing within the mix bus's comfort range? Would it sound different backing off some, does it sound fun pushed?

(Except for 'phones tracking mixes and a few odds and ends I haven't done a real Mackie 8-bus mix in quite a while...

 

[Massive Master]

I don't have an interface.

In your case, the converters.