HomeRecording: V-Drums Vs A-Drums

M

Mr. Ins@ne

New member
Well, I know all the drummers tend to be a bit close-minded about electronic technology concerning drums, but I started working on some home productions and realize that nowadays (in the XXI century) there's nothing like working with a V-drum on studio (also live, but that's another matter). If any of you guys doubt of it, please feel free to check how a totally homemade production seems to surpass many of the professional productions that come from a professional studio.

Check the samples available at:

www.spiralsektor.com/sounds.html

Rem@in Ins@ne
 
Mr. Ins@ne said:
If any of you guys doubt of it, please feel free to check how a totally homemade production seems to surpass many of the professional productions that come from a professional studio.
Click to expand...
I DO doubt it... and those recordings don't help your case at all!

I've worked with V-Drums - they can be useful, but the cymbals especially sound artificial and limited. The V-Drum brain makes an excellent trigger resource - but they don't compare to the sound of a properly-mic'd acoustic kit. Period.
 
...And so we meet again!

I was hoping I could learn from you, since you are known here for being the best.

So, do you have a solution if I'd like to stick with V-drums? What kind of processing should I use to make it sound better?

Th@nx
 
First of all, I'm far from the best on this board -- there are a number of veteran engineers who hang out here who are truly top-notch -- but I do know a thing or two.......!

As to the V-Drums - the cymbals are bascially horrible-sounding - if you really want good results you should use the kit in conjunction with real hardware (mic'd)...

Careful selection of the sounds of the individual drum sounds is essential -- they may sound good on their own - but they tend not to have enough dynamics to work well in the context of a mix.

As well, avoid compression on them completely - they simply don't need it - they're samples and already have a lot of life squeezed out of them.

If it's all you got, then it's all you got... so you make do - but it won't ever sound like a well-mic'd kit, no matter what you do!

Good luck with it!
 
Good Tune...Sounds good...cymbals??

hey i thought your song was really good, and i thought the sounds used were good. But i do agree that fake cymbals aren't very real sounding. I use triggers on all of my drums, and mic up cymbals. It seems to work well. But anyway, for what you used the song did sound very proffessional. What set of E drums you got, and how'd you get the guitar sound. i especially liked that. Good job, but i have to admit as most others on this site that e cymbals are kinda sterile sounding.
 
Hmmm...

I'm a big fan of Edrums (I own a DTX), but having worked with both Ekits and acoustics, I'd say you can't beat a well recorded acoustic kit (the cymbal thing goes without saying). But, it's bloody tricky nailing the sound you want and it takes a lot of practice.

I liked your mixes, the sound was ace, and I liked the style of the tracks (kinda leaning towards my taste). But your snare just isn't cutting through at all (it sounds like a block of wood to me). Now if that's the sound you're after - all well and good, but it doesn't quite back up your "real drums are dead" claim.

Dave.
 
I've been using V-Drums for about 4 years. Prior to that I used other e-drums including various Roland and Alesis modules and going back far enough I used Simmons (needed "that sound" in the 80's). Naturally as a drummer I've also owned and recorded on dozens of accoustic kits.

I am a fan of electroinc drums for many reasons the two main reasons being 1) eliminates the need for a "drum room", numerous mics, pres, etc. etc 2) capturing the MIDI performance and plugging in the drum sound (an important part of most recordings) after other things are recorded - thus getting the "best drum sound for the song".

However I must agree e-cymbals just don't do it and accordingly it works best to use accoustic cymbals with the e-drums. However, this then requires a decent room, mics, etc - at which point you're almost half way to recording the whole accoustic kit.

I think Blue Bear has two very good points - 1) avoid compression, most e-drum sounds simply don't need it and 2) tweak the sounds - many times adding the attack of one sound with the resonance or another sound can provide the right presence in the mix. There isn't much you can do with e-cymbal sounds (although some EQ can help). I find I simply have to keep the E-cymbal sounds lower in the mix (to "hide the weakness"), however this is not a bad thing since I truly believe that cymbal sounds should be a subtle color which enhances a mix - but does not dominate the mix.

While I agree with Blue Bear that even the best e-drums will likely never track as well as a quality, well recorded accoustic kit - I do think that e-drums work fine for the majority of projects recorded in home studios for demos, jingles and independant distribution.
 
That kinda sucks, 'cause not only I don't have equipment to rec ambiences and mics/compressors, I also would most likely get killed by my neighbours if I had the idea of recording acoustic stuff here.

I recently recorded drums as session musician for another band and I used the same V-kit with the same samples. And although the drums were recorded here, the whole sound processing, mixing and other recordings took place in a pro. studio. The sound is somewhat different. I really can't figure if the drum sound or the cymbals to be more precise are better than SinDRomE (my band) or if are worse. You can check it our at:

http://www.iuma.com/IUMA/Bands/Arcane_Wisdom/

But I warn you...this is extreme stuff.

"What set of E drums you got, and how'd you get the guitar sound. i especially liked that"

About my kit (see attachments) I use a Roland TD-10 with TDW-1 exp. I use also some extra pads (even simmons pads). I still have to find a way of having more inputs. I have 2 unplugged pads :

About the guitars, they were recorded direct to the V-amp II (behringer) and then to the mixer (mx802). Afterwards they were processed with software.

Rem@in Ins@ne

www.spiralsektor.com
 
Mr. Ins@ne said:
That kinda sucks, 'cause not only I don't have equipment to rec ambiences and mics/compressors, I also would most likely get killed by my neighbours if I had the idea of recording acoustic stuff here.

I recently recorded drums as session musician for another band and I used the same V-kit with the same samples. And although the drums were recorded here, the whole sound processing, mixing and other recordings took place in a pro. studio. The sound is somewhat different. I really can't figure if the drum sound or the cymbals to be more precise are better than SinDRomE (my band) or if are worse. You can check it our at:

http://www.iuma.com/IUMA/Bands/Arcane_Wisdom/

But I warn you...this is extreme stuff.

"What set of E drums you got, and how'd you get the guitar sound. i especially liked that"

About my kit (see attachments) I use a Roland TD-10 with TDW-1 exp. I use also some extra pads (even simmons pads). I still have to find a way of having more inputs. I have 2 unplugged pads :

About the guitars, they were recorded direct to the V-amp II (behringer) and then to the mixer (mx802). Afterwards they were processed with software.

Rem@in Ins@ne

www.spiralsektor.com
Click to expand...

Holy crap you recorded that with a Vamp 2? What settings did you use, and what kind of processing was done in software? I was ready to write my Vamp off as piece of garbage until I heard that. Brutal tunes btw.
 
I love my V-sessions!. I've only had them about 6 months, and it took about 5 months of messing around with them to finally get a couple sets tweaked, but I love them. The presets ( like most presets on most gear ) suck. But a little time and effort really pays off. Can not tell E from A on these things. The exception is the cymbals. They are not horrible, but I can tell the difference. However I would be willing to believe that the average joe could not. The V cymbals are a BIG step in the right direction for E-cymbals.
Also, I found I had to add a TON of compression on the snare and the kick. Actually had to boost the output of the compression in the TD10 mixer on the snare and bass alot. I know this is a "no no" but it sounds great (and that's the bottom line).
My only real problem with them is the quality of the brain (TD10 expanded tdw-1) Roland could have made thier "flagship" model a little less "toy" like. Doesn't feel real solid. Some better outputs would be nice. And also, a better sequencer would really be helpful. The sequencer in it really bites. Can't even record it's own information (polyphonic key pressure....cymbal choke). And the internal memory is way too limited. IMHO, I love them, but not really worth $5000. However I feel 99% of all gear is way overpriced. Maybe I'm just getting old?? hehe.
 
Just imagine a great acoustic drumset as a grand piano and an electronic set as a great synth. One never replaces the other but Edrums allows total flexibility: change the drum sound after the fact with brand new heads every time,layering sounds and playing rhythmic patterns with pitched sounds (wood blocks or pizzicato strings).

The ultimate set is a real hihat a few real cymbals
combined with an electronic set.
 
Bfd

Mr. [email said:
Ins@ne]...And[/email] so we meet again!

I was hoping I could learn from you, since you are known here for being the best.

So, do you have a solution if I'd like to stick with V-drums? What kind of processing should I use to make it sound better?

Th@nx
Click to expand...

My friend hooked his V-Drum on this http://www.fxpansion.com/product-bfd-main.php with Pro-Tools, it's called BFD, it's sounds amazing to me.

Here's some infos :
BFD gives you your own drum studio,with complete control of 7 real drum kits plus additional hats, snares and cymbals. Every drum is recorded from eleven different mics positioned around the kit and room so you can mix your drums by blending the mic sources just like in a real studio. BFD's high quality drum sample library has an unparalleled degree of realism. For each type of drum type in each kit, there are a number of different styles of 'hits'. Each of these 'hits' is sampled at up to 46 velocity layers, resulting in drum parts of superior detail and expressiveness.

BFD was recorded in the drum room at a top Californian recording studio by professional engineer Steve Duda (NIN, Pitchshifter, A Perfect Circle) using over $50,000 worth of microphones from Neumann, Sennheiser, AKG and others. The drums used range from the 1920s to 2002, and include both classics and rarities. Not only useful as a sound source for your own drum programming, BFD also incorporates a comprehensive library of ready-to-use MIDI Grooves with different styles, feels and time signatures. The library features both programmed grooves and MIDI recordings of real drummers, including top UK session drummer Chris Dagley (Jamiroquai, Lalo Schifrin, Ella Fitzgerald, Eric Clapton, Chaka Khan).
 
Jun said:
Just imagine a great acoustic drumset as a grand piano and an electronic set as a great synth. One never replaces the other but Edrums allows total flexibility: change the drum sound after the fact with brand new heads every time,layering sounds and playing rhythmic patterns with pitched sounds (wood blocks or pizzicato strings).

The ultimate set is a real hihat a few real cymbals
combined with an electronic set.
Click to expand...

The ultimate set is the set that the Tool drummer has... accoustic+electric drums and regular cymbals. Now his set is some crazy shit.
 
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