Holy cow!

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Wow, you're really stuck on that whole harmonics thing, aren't you? :) The behavior is already fairly well-documented in many books, journals and papers. I suggest that you might want to start out with the book "Artificial Life" by Steven Levy. It dates back to 1992 so it's not a new book (though I have not read any later editions which probably have updates), but that just goes to show you how matured the knowledge is by now.

G.

Thanks I'll Google that. The thing is though, you can't just accept things that you're told or read and if your instinct tells you there's something there it's worth noting. I have come to realize that accepted science is at least 50 years behind the truth in a number of fields.

I was just reading about Jupiter's 4 main moons. In the speed that one orbits Jupiter once, two of the others orbit twice and the other 4 times, and it's all based on harmonic resonance. That's three octaves. You have the fundamental, the octave and then skipping the 3rd harmonic (which is a 5th) the octave above that in the harmonic series.

The planets are all held in their positions by harmonics, the exact same ones on a musical instrument. As each planet's mass increases, the harmonics change.

In music, all there is is time and the harmonic series. So ya, I am really stuck on harmonics!
 
Thanks I'll Google that. The thing is though, you can't just accept things that you're told or read and if your instinct tells you there's something there it's worth noting. I have come to realize that accepted science is at least 50 years behind the truth in a number of fields.

I was just reading about Jupiter's 4 main moons. In the speed that one orbits Jupiter once, two of the others orbit twice and the other 4 times, and it's all based on harmonic resonance. That's three octaves. You have the fundamental, the octave and then skipping the 3rd harmonic (which is a 5th) the octave above that in the harmonic series.

The planets are all held in their positions by harmonics, the exact same ones on a musical instrument. As each planet's mass increases, the harmonics change.

In music, all there is is time and the harmonic series. So ya, I am really stuck on harmonics!
String theory. :D
 
I was just reading about Jupiter's 4 main moons. In the speed that one orbits Jupiter once, two of the others orbit twice and the other 4 times, and it's all based on harmonic resonance. That's three octaves. You have the fundamental, the octave and then skipping the 3rd harmonic (which is a 5th) the octave above that in the harmonic series.

Unfortunately Callisto's period is 9.434 times Io's, and none of Saturn's moons show any such relation, especially in relation to Titan. None of the planets show any such relation, although Neptune and Uranus are kinda close, and I suppose Mars and Venus. Out of 28 relationships and a 3% margin of allowance, that is what would be randomly expected.

It's easy to find patterns in nature if you go looking for them, but that doesn't mean the pattern always applies as a law of physics . . . I mean you could extend the harmonic series far enough to create a ratio of any two integers you wanted, but that wouldn't prove much.
 
I'm certainly no expert on this, I'm learning as I go.

Here's what I was reading that made me think about the harmonics:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jupiter

On that page it says:

The orbits of Io, Europa, and Ganymede, some of the largest satellites in the Solar System, form a pattern known as a Laplace resonance; for every four orbits that Io makes around Jupiter, Europa makes exactly two orbits and Ganymede makes exactly one.
 
Thanks I'll Google that. The thing is though, you can't just accept things that you're told or read and if your instinct tells you there's something there it's worth noting.
It's not a question of "just accepting" anything. It's a known branch of mathematics that's used every day everywhere from college computer labs to Wall Street brokerage firms to weather and climate research to biology to social studies, and *it works*. It's not a question of instinct or of belief, any more than the sun coming up tomorrow is a question of instinct or belief.

For how long was it instinctual to believe the earth was flat or that strange personal behavior caused by fungal poisoning of the local crops was actually someone being a witch?

As far as the behavior of Jupiter's Galilean moons (there's nothing "main" about them), you're walking an old path already traveled hundreds of years ago and found to be a dead end. Look up Bode's Law and the history of Johannas Kepler for just two examples in history of attempts to find simple geometric and/or harmonic relations in the orbits of various bodies.

In the case of Bode's Law, it's a very selective law that works only partway; the more bodies we discovered, the more the "law" didn't work. The same is true with Jupiter's planets. The relation you cite only works when you consider 4 of Jupiter's 63+ known moons. Kind of meaningless when you have to ignore at least 59 of it's moons to find something "instinctual".

In Kepler's case, he had the "instinctive" thought that orbits followed a harmonic series based upon the "perfect" geometrical shapes of the Greek philosophers. At least he was smart enough to actually work on how Mom Nature actually works in real life instead of just what his own "instinct" was, and he wound up having to dump the entire hypothesis and instead discover the laws of motion that mow have been given his name and that have been proven over and over for the hundreds of years since he came up with them that govern the basis of the disciplne known as orbital mechanics.

The great thing about all of that is that one doesn't have to take anybody's word on any of it. All one has to do is make the observations and calculations themselves to realize the factuality and reality of it all.

G.
 
It's not a question of "just accepting" anything. It's a known branch of mathematics that's used every day everywhere from college computer labs to Wall Street brokerage firms to weather and climate research to biology to social studies, and *it works*. It's not a question of instinct or of belief, any more than the sun coming up tomorrow is a question of instinct or belief...

Truthfully, I don't know what you mean by "it's". What is?

I personally question everything.
 
Neil Young must be the giant red spot on Jupiter then.That violent chaotic storm that's always on the edge of catastophe :laughings:
 
Neil Young must be the giant red spot on Jupiter then.That violent chaotic storm that's always on the edge of catastophe :laughings:

I found this Neil/Planets Comparison Chart and you're actually not that far off

PLANETSCOMPARISSON.jpg
 
Will all these moons and theories and disregarded non laws and 90 degree turning fish schools help me in figuring out the setting of compression thresholds ? :confused:
 
I'm certainly no expert on this, I'm learning as I go.

Here's what I was reading that made me think about the harmonics:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jupiter

On that page it says:

The orbits of Io, Europa, and Ganymede, some of the largest satellites in the Solar System, form a pattern known as a Laplace resonance; for every four orbits that Io makes around Jupiter, Europa makes exactly two orbits and Ganymede makes exactly one.

The problem is this statement:

The planets are all held in their positions by harmonics, the exact same ones on a musical instrument. As each planet's mass increases, the harmonics change.

That's an exclusive statement, and it's demonstrably false.
 
I thought gravity was responsible for holding planets in their orbits? :)

Oh...since we've now gone totally off topic and into this scientific discussion...
...can we get the title of the thread changed one more time to "Gee Whiz!". :D
 
weather and climate research

I never believe the weatherman's predictions due to the chaos theory that can't be explained to this date! :D




any more than the sun coming up tomorrow.

Now wait a minute, doesn't the horizon goes down? :D


G.

Just thought that I'd throw this into the pot.:)








:cool:
 
Truthfully, I don't know what you mean by "it's". What is?
You're making me dig into the cobwebs of my memory here (which I've frankly been doing all along), and I don't remember the formal name of the branch(es) of math and formal disciplines we're talking about, and honestly it's too early in a long day for me to dig my books out and look them up. I do remember that on the computer that it deals a lot with non-linear dynamics, neural networking and computer constructs called cellular automata (sp?).

The point is, this is another one of the many cases where people have a ton of pet theories (I've had a few of my own over the years too) where the theories are really just the individual's way of filling in voids in their personal knowledge that are not voids in the actual achieved knowledge of man, it's just that the number of people that learn about it is smaller because it's not taught until well into college, and even then only in certain majors.

And yeah, you're going to find some easy mathematical relationships all over mom nature where things fall on multiples of some base values (which is really all "harmonics" are.) But that's usually because that just how math works, for lack of a better way of putting it offhand. From quantum energy states to the vibration of guitar strings to the orbital mechanics of the planets, harmonious patterns can be found. That's mathematics. But just as equally, so can non-harmonious patterns and values, and to ignore those and single out the harmonious ones ans something more important, because the human brain tends to find those as more attractive is to ignore the true nature of most of the world around us.

Here's an analogy; we tend to be attracted to the perfect mathematical shapes and solids of the Greek philosophers; squares, circles, triangles, cubes, spheres, etc., and tend to see them and admire them when they occur in nature, and they do occur. But the vast majority of the universe does NOT conform to those basic geometric shape but rather tends to have a more chaotic form to it, and to ignore that far more complex nature is to ignore the majority of reality.

Similarly there are simple harmonies in nature, and we find those harmonies very attractive, because that's how our brains are wired and trained. But there's so much more out there above and beyond those simple harmonies that swamp out those harmonies when one considers the whole of the truth, that one can pretty quickly see that those harmonies are only special cases within how nature operates and not the basis on which it operates. It's like whole numbers or integers (1,2,3,4, etc.). They are very attractive and easy and do occur in nature, but on the whole, nature tends not to operate in integers, but rather in more irrational values.

So when a few of Jupiter's moons and some of the planets orbiting the sun do fall into a mathematical pattern of some type that just so happen to mathematically resemble in some way other aspects of nature like the harmonies of sound or of waves on the ocean, that's going to happen, sure, because that's joust how the mathematics work and how our brains tend to want to organize things. But there are more cases where the math does NOT work that way than where it does, and we cannot make broad statements or conclusions about laws of how things work by ignoring the majority and focusing only on the attractive exceptions.

G.
 
I thought gravity was responsible for holding planets in their orbits? :)

Oh...since we've now gone totally off topic and into this scientific discussion...

There is a "fundamental" musical principle at play, and that is that music must consist of harmonically related tones. That is also not true.
 
Glenn (and Mshilarious), I'm sorry to tell you this, and I think that you actually both realize this... nobody reads your long posts. They're really for you, venting frustration likely from some other part of your life. I do read some, enough for me to conclude that:

The truth is that no one knows.

I do think both of you are very helpful and I respect that immensely. :)

...can we get the title of the thread changed one more time to "Gee Whiz!". :D

At the rate this is going, I predict it wll be changed back to "Holy Fuck" by noon.

I found this to be pretty interesting: http://astrobiology.nasa.gov/articles/the-dance-of-the-giant-planets/
 
They're really for you, venting frustration likely from some other part of your life.

The truth is that no one knows.
Both of those statements are pure baloney, and the refuge of those unwilling to make any real effort to learn the truth.

Real life cannot be resolved into 140-character tweets.

Why has reading become so damned unfashionable? Christ, people will believe any crap they see on meTube, but the minute anybody tries explaining or reasoning anything in print, they turn it off.

Your loss, not ours.

G.
 
Glenn, what happens is people pick up your vibe and are very turned off. I like you, I think you're a great guy, I really do... but man your vibe is toxic at times. Tact from Hell. I can only imagine how that plays out in your business.

I think you know this and that's really why you're mad. You're not mad at me, you're mad at Glenn. Maybe it's the cigarettes... I think they make people angry and frustrated.

It's very, very obvious when I read your stuff (and mine) that you don't really know, and neither do I.
 
Glenn, what happens is people pick up your vibe and are very turned off. I like you, I think you're a great guy, I really do... but man your vibe is toxic at times. Tact from Hell. I can only imagine how that plays out in your business.

I think you know this and that's really why you're mad. You're not mad at me, you're mad at Glenn. Maybe it's the cigarettes... I think they make people angry and frustrated.

It's very, very obvious when I read your stuff (and mine) that you don't really know, and neither do I.

OH No!!!!......It's 12:30 here and "Holy F*ck" :eek:







:cool:
 
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