Hit song Forumal

[Aaron Cheney]

Makes you think that when the likes of Aaron bang on here about how you need to structure a song if you want to be commercial, they have a point.

Did someone mention me??

OK...I'll chime in.

But first off, I'm not interested in an argument and I won't be drawn into one. Now, The First Don, (and I say this in the freindliest way possible) your entire premise is so ridiculous that it's laughable. What your attempting to prove is that any creative endeavor that springs from an analytical thought can't possibly be art becuase it carries no emotional weight. I'm sorry, but all art springs from analytical thought. An artist uses analytical thought as a springboard for his creative mind. Take a look at this.
The premise of those songs was to create new song for each letter of the albhabet, with every word in each song starting only with that song's letter. A very analytical begining to some very cool songs.

Furthermore, the point of art isn't only to express the artist's thoughts and emotions, but to evoke emotions from listeners/viewers as well. Otherwise no one else would ever care about an artist's work. Given that, an artists uses his analytical thought to craft his art in a way that will bring about predictable emotional responses to his work. Can't be done, you say? How 'bout if I called you a miserable, horse-eating, dung-bathing, no good so-and-so, and then flipped you off? I bet I could predict your emotional response. I can becuase I've watched other people doing similar things and seen the results, and I've tried similar things myself and seen the results. (but not very often.... )

As songwriters we use the techniques of songwriting to evoke emotional responses from our listeners. Those techniques come from generations of songwriters experimenting with song form, note choice, lyrical content, etc etc etc., and learning how things work. A great songwriter doesn't blindly follow "the rules", but he knows them and understands how they work. And those rare times when he "breaks" them it's not just from haphazard luck or "for the sake of creative freedom" as TaoManna Don put it (good post BTW!). When a good songwriter "breaks" the rules he "breaks" them brilliantly because it serves the song.

A

 

[Garry Sharp]

Did someone mention me??

No, it was a different Aaron Cheney

I think the point many posters are making is that today's commercial stuff is produced totally by working backwards from what they know will sell. THAT is formulaic, the complete antithesis of Bob Dylan saying "fuck the folkies, I'm going electric" and putting up with two tours' worth of boos and hatred.

The question was, after all, about a hit song, not a good song - we can have endless debates about how to do the latter, although IMHO they don't have a great deal of practical value.

 

[Aaron Cheney]

The question was, after all, about a hit song, not a good song - we can have endless debates about how to do the latter, although IMHO they don't have a great deal of practical value.

Agreed.

And it makes you wonder... who are all the people that paid to see Dylan second tour? Fool me once, blame on you. Fool me twice....

A

 

[Garry Sharp]

I was referring to his European tour as the second one. Actually I can't help but think that many went along for the express purpose of booing..

 

[The First Don]

Did someone mention me??

What your attempting to prove is that any creative endeavor that springs from an analytical thought can't possibly be art becuase it carries no emotional weight. I'm sorry, but all art springs from analytical thought. An artist uses analytical thought as a springboard for his creative mind. Take a look at this.
The premise of those songs was to create new song for each letter of the albhabet, with every word in each song starting only with that song's letter. A very analytical begining to some very cool songs.

A

Analytical thought is breaking a whole part into components; reducing fractions to simplest terms is an example of analytical thought. With all due respect, I found it necissary to define this based off of the use in context.

The left side of the brain, also refered to by some as the artistic or creative side, uses abstract thought processes. The right side of the brain uses logical thought processes. To the extent of my understanding, analytical thoughts are derived from logical thoughts. Conclusively, logical thoughts play no signifigant role in creative, artistic, or abstract works.

 

[tpreager]

Try this one on for size:

Intro
Verse I
Pre-Chorus
Verse II
Pre-Chorus
Chorus
Bridge/Breakdown
Verse III (half as long)
Pre-Chorus
Chorus
Chorus but louder
End

There you go, there's my 3 cents. haha.

Timmy J

 

[Rokket]

There you go, there's my 3 cents. haha.

Timmy J

See, that's what's really wrong with today's music! He wants to get paid!



I'm kidding, really!

 

[tpreager]

See, that's what's really wrong with today's music! He wants to get paid!

I'm kidding, really!

Serious, most people want to get paid to play,record,write, whatever. I just want to have a good time doing it. But I'm sure we don't want to get into a big discussion about money.

Timmy J

 

[Rokket]

Serious, most people want to get paid to play,record,write, whatever. I just want to have a good time doing it. But I'm sure we don't want to get into a big discussion about money.

Timmy J

I think most people dream about making it in the music business. I used to gig and got paid, but I found that most of my profits went back into my gear in one way or another (when we didn't have to come back the second night and play to pay off our beer tab, which pissed me off because I was too young to drink at the time). Now it's a home recording hobby, and I don't have delusions of granduer any longer.

 

[Layla Nahar]

Conclusively, logical thoughts play no signifigant role in creative, artistic, or abstract works.

nah - no etc

perhaps analytical linear thought doesn't do much for the germination and generation of the idea - but for the rendering of the idea/feeling into a finished product, something tangible - frankly, the making of art is an engineering job. How do you mix your paint to get the right colors? If you paint the table too big, how are you going to get your person to fit right between the table and the window? How can I get the last line of the first quatrain of this sonnet to be 10 syllables long, but end with a rhyme of the first line? This effect really creates a feeling of loneliness, but its too bassy - how can I equalize each track to keep the sound from getting too muddy, but still get a rich sound?

you get the point, right? If I was designing a racing bike, it would be, how can I make the bike as light as possible, but still strong enough?

the rendering of idea into reality is - engineering. painter poet, sound designer, songwriter; all - emotional engineers.

 

[true-eurt]

Geeeeze...this is gettin good...can't wait for the next post....well I will wait till morning....I'm going to bed....

 

[glynb]

I think most people dream about making it in the music business. I used to gig and got paid, but I found that most of my profits went back into my gear in one way or another (when we didn't have to come back the second night and play to pay off our beer tab, which pissed me off because I was too young to drink at the time). Now it's a home recording hobby, and I don't have delusions of granduer any longer.

Well isn't that the whole point of the thread really? A 'hit' song is one which is played everywhere, sells units and makes lots of MONEY (not necessarily for the writers, but that's another debate). If it was possible to identify a formula for a 'hit' then that's a way to make money and that interests people of course. Professional songwriters may be very interested in the formula for example if they find it will make them money.

IMHO the best way to write GOOD songs is not to be concerned about money, but to be concerned about exploring the art of song writing itself, to experiment with sounds and structures and wierd tunings and equipment and anything else that comes to mind and just see what happens. I think people who get hung up on trying to write the next hit song like 'My Way' or the next 'My Heart Will Go On' may close off options by trying to follow a similar formula.

I think 'Hey ya' as mentioned in the other post is a good example of someone experimenting and coming up with something that sounded fresh but which was also a 'hit'. I don't see that song as following a formula (although you could of course identify a structure to it - not the same thing).

 

[thane1200]

Try this one on for size:

Intro
Verse I
Pre-Chorus
Verse II
Pre-Chorus
Chorus
Bridge/Breakdown
Verse III (half as long)
Pre-Chorus
Chorus
Chorus but louder
End

There you go, there's my 3 cents. haha.

Timmy J

...that only works for songs with words...what about electronic music? I'd hate to have to come up with something on my own.....LOL

 

[Aaron Cheney]

Conclusively, logical thoughts play no signifigant role in creative, artistic, or abstract works.

Examine an Escher piece sometime.

Or a Bach piece.

Both are largely mathematical in nature, yet glorious works of art.

A


(p.s. Nicely put, Layla.)

 

[thane1200]

Examine an Escher piece sometime.

was Escher really an MC?

 

[Aaron Cheney]

was Escher really an MC?

Yup... and he closed every drawing session with the words "Escher...OUT!"

A

 

[Aaron Cheney]

This is the cool thing about the arts, IMHO, and why it's a bloody shame they're being mercilessly cut from every school's budget: They force both sides of a person's brain to work together.

A kid learning to play the violin in the 4th grade is exercising the right side of his brain (sight reading, fingerings, etc.), while simultaneously exercising the left side (via the music he is hearing/participating in... and later perhaps composing/arranging). It's a wonderful thing. The Mozart effect is real.

I once taught a class on music's effect on the mind, and it is pretty freakin' amazing! In fact I've been asked to teach it again (condensed version) in June at a youth summer camp here in WA. One of my favorite stats is a study that was done on advanced alzhiemer patients, where they were asked to recount by memory:

a) the name of their doctor
b) the lines of their favorite spoken poem
c) sing lines from their favorite song

Anyone want to guess the results?

A

 

[the edzell]

Try this one on for size:

Intro
Verse I
Pre-Chorus
Verse II
Pre-Chorus
Chorus
Bridge/Breakdown
Verse III (half as long)
Pre-Chorus
Chorus
Chorus but louder
End

There you go, there's my 3 cents. haha.

Timmy J

You forgot the part where in the last chorus the singer starts singing all over the place to show off his or her chops (often hitting the highest note in their range) or is accompanied by a massive choir where someone does it for them.

Also forgot the lyrical content of a hit song it has to be:

A. A ode to the love of my life who I can't live without (track should be laced with plenty of sexual conitations. Track could be about sex but must be masked as a love song, even if it is only about the love for sex)
B. A ode to the love of my life who dumped me and I can't live without (sexual innuendo usually not optional)
C. Me against the world and I will prevail. (Usually followed by profanity that has to be bleeped out that will want said listen to know what their saying, even though any moron could figure it out.)

 

[tpreager]

You forgot the part where in the last chorus the singer starts singing all over the place to show off his or her chops (often hitting the highest note in their range) or is accompanied by a massive choir where someone does it for them.

Also forgot the lyrical content of a hit song it has to be:

A. A ode to the love of my life who I can't live without (track should be laced with plenty of sexual conitations. Track could be about sex but must be masked as a love song, even if it is only about the love for sex)
B. A ode to the love of my life who dumped me and I can't live without (sexual innuendo usually not optional)
C. Me against the world and I will prevail. (Usually followed by profanity that has to be bleeped out that will want said listen to know what their saying, even though any moron could figure it out.)

Very True. Critical for the success of most tunes! hah.

I also find that most songs are about one of 3 things:

1. Love/Sex
2. Hate/Death
3. God

And as you mentioned, there's also #4.
4. I win/You lose/I hate the world

Songwriters should veer away from these ideas. Although, that also depends on what message their trying to get across. But in the end, I say write about whatever the hell you want to.

Timmy J

 

[The First Don]

I'm going to write a song about business management.