High End Mics + Poor Acoustics

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pezking

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Basically I want to know of anyone's experience/knowledge of using high end mics in an untreated room.

A short background on my home studio:

I record rock music in a spare room in my house. It's maybe 4m x 5m. Usually I record the drum tracks first and then do overdubs for the other instruments and finish with the vocals.

My setup (currently) is as follows:

Samson QMic Drum Mic Set
Tackstar PCM6100 Cardioid Condensers (over heads and snare bought on ebay for about £15 a pop!)
T.Bone M75 dynamic mic
MXL 990 Cardioid Condenser
DI Boxes etc.

The room is large, carpeted, and contains a couple of upright pianos a small organ, and a couple of china cabinets (!!!). Despite no acoustic treatment, I usually get a nice drum sound using the tackstars as overheads, one on snare, one on hats. I use the QKick on, you guessed it, kick, and then the tom mics clip onto the tom rims. To record bass I just DI the bass direct - and use an amp simulator. For guitars I use my JCM900 and use the T.Bone (v similar to sm57) or the MXL, and sometimes both in the classic setup of dynamic close, and condenser a few feet away. For vocals, I use the MXL along with a pop-shield about 6" or less from the singer.

I have two Terratec EWS88MTs (now Phase88) providing 8i/o channels each, recording to Nuendo. I monitor on Tannoy Reveals. Oh yeah and I have two Nady 8 Channel Pre-amps.

I've been asked to make a recording for a band - and they want it at a very high quality - but still want to record with me and at my place.

So I had the idea of renting some top quality microphones from a nearby hire company. I'd use:

AKG 414 - Overheads and Snare Bottom
SM57 or Beta 57 - Snare Top
Sennheiser MD441 - Toms
AKG D112 - Kick (inside)
EV RE20 - Kick (outside)

Neumann U87 - Guitar
SM57 - Guitar

RE20 - Bass (as well as DI)

Neumann U87 - Vocals.

The cost is not an issue. My question is:

Will the higher quality microphones accentuate the poor acoustics of my room? Will the recording actually suffer as a result of the mics? Are there any other problems that may arise?

I'll post a link to a recording I've done some time tomorrow, and maybe (if anyone's interested and I can be bothered) make a recording of the impulse response of the room.

Thanks in advance, Will
 
pezking said:
I've been asked to make a recording for a band - and they want it at a very high quality - but still want to record with me and at my place. ...... Will the higher quality microphones accentuate the poor acoustics of my room? Will the recording actually suffer as a result of the mics? Are there any other problems that may arise?
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If you have to ask that question ... then I would seriously have to question whether you currently posses the necessary knowlege and/or experience to make this desire of theirs for "very high quality" a reality.

That would be my first and main concern.

If you truly know your space and have confidence in it, along with your knowlege and ability to employ and utilize these mics to their maximum potential and to get quality tracks with them ... then your question is unnecessary -- you just do it, and you just make them work.

If you have insecurities about whether or not you can make them work for you in your current environment, then that should probably tell you something. So my answer to your quesiton is this: Do you feel like you're up to the task, and are you confident in your ears and judgement to where you can make these mics work for you in your situation? If so, then my answer would be to go and rent these mics without hesitation. If not, then I think it would be a waste.

.
 
yeah...great mics make for crappy recordings in crappy rooms.

mostly on louder things..vocals will probably be bad.

it sorta just depends on the pattern and what the mic is. a good condenser is going to show you what your room is all about...if the room sucks...its really going to show you that. cheaper mics don't pick up every reflection and detail, and will probably end up better.
 
i hate to ask, but what about pres? is recording the drum tracks at a local studio and then doing all of the other tracks at home an option? if so, you could have all of the other band members and the drummer record some scratch tracks with what you have (a click track and getting some isolation might be very helpful) with the gear that you have, have the drummer play over it at a nice studio that you rent out/hire for a day (or less) and then you could redo the other tracks at home and at your and the band's leisure.
if not, i'd agree with chess that with good gear or the gear you have it will ultimately be a test of your technique. i've made decent recordings of drums in crappy rooms, i've had friends who are better engineers make great recordings of drums in crappy rooms. but if you clip your pres and/or your converters, don't do a good job of mic placement (for optimal sound and minding phase, etc.) or make other mistakes, the expense of the mic rentals could be easily wasted.
 
I just want to add that an untreated room by no means equal bad acoustics. Lots of beautiful recordings has been done in very lively rooms. As always, use your ears and learn to trust them.
 
Definitely do NOT spend the money even renting high-end mics or pres if your room sucks. It's all gotta improve at the same time.

Upgrade your room and get better at recording and mixing and you'll see more benefit than if you rent nice mics. The high-end stuff is for use in studios where the room, performance, songwriting and preamps are already top notch. If one piece of the puzzle sucks, then it ALL sucks.
 
mrhotapples said:
Definitely do NOT spend the money even renting high-end mics or pres if your room sucks. It's all gotta improve at the same time.

Upgrade your room and get better at recording and mixing and you'll see more benefit than if you rent nice mics. The high-end stuff is for use in studios where the room, performance, songwriting and preamps are already top notch. If one piece of the puzzle sucks, then it ALL sucks.
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Are you speaking from experience?

You'd think what would matter more would be the mic's pattern and characteristics. A cheap SDC/omni mic will sound just as shitty (or even more) than a high end one in a shitty room. The expensive one might bring out more detail in the shittyness, but the recording quality will also probably sound better.

Edit: Also, things can be done to shitty rooms to make them better to record in. Hang up thick blankets and maybe put up a mattress or something in the corner to try and tame the reflections. And use the right kind of mics for the room/instrument.
 
danny.guitar said:
Also, things can be done to shitty rooms to make them better to record in. Hang up thick blankets and maybe put up a mattress or something in the corner to try and tame the reflections. And use the right kind of mics for the room/instrument.
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I think this is a good point. While we would all love to have a great studio (and I'm glad that those of you who do are willing to help the rest of us out with your advice), it's really not possible for all of us. I'm personally in a two bedroom apartment, and I get to record in my boys' bedroom when they're not home. I'm renting so I can't really do anything to the walls. I'm betting that Pezking's question pertains to at least a few of us. It makes me wonder, what would those of you with years of experience do if you were suddenly placed in a situation where you had limited equipment and a room you couldn't make any changes to? Would good recordings be completely impossible for you? Chessrock might be right, if we have to ask, we might not really have the knowhow, but if we don't ask, how are we going to get there?
 
Caotico said:
I think this is a good point. While we would all love to have a great studio (and I'm glad that those of you who do are willing to help the rest of us out with your advice), it's really not possible for all of us. I'm personally in a two bedroom apartment, and I get to record in my boys' bedroom when they're not home. I'm renting so I can't really do anything to the walls. I'm betting that Pezking's question pertains to at least a few of us. It makes me wonder, what would those of you with years of experience do if you were suddenly placed in a situation where you had limited equipment and a room you couldn't make any changes to? Would good recordings be completely impossible for you? Chessrock might be right, if we have to ask, we might not really have the knowhow, but if we don't ask, how are we going to get there?
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I was thinking about this earlier.

This is a home recording forum. The goal should be to learn how to make the most of what you have. Most answers to questions are "get a better mic", "treat your room", "get better monitors" etc. until you essentially have a real studio in your house.

There's not enough topics on how to get by without all that. I'd be interested to know what a 'pro' would do with budget gear/bad rooms to record in.
 
Consider getting clothes racks and hanging army blankets over them. Place these at the sides of the room. This will reduce reflections. The drier and less reflective your room, the more you can "add" appropriate reverb/treatment and EQ in post-production. Rugs on the floor, and avoiding the corners, will improve things more too. Good luck.
 
If you live in the country, record outside. No more bad room sound.
 
HangDawg said:
If you live in the country, record outside. No more bad room sound.
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Would this require a remote steup? :D :D
 
pezking said:
Basically I want to know of anyone's experience/knowledge of using high end mics in an untreated room.

A short background on my home studio:

I record rock music in a spare room in my house. It's maybe 4m x 5m. Usually I record the drum tracks first and then do overdubs for the other instruments and finish with the vocals.

My setup (currently) is as follows:

Samson QMic Drum Mic Set
Tackstar PCM6100 Cardioid Condensers (over heads and snare bought on ebay for about £15 a pop!)
T.Bone M75 dynamic mic
MXL 990 Cardioid Condenser
DI Boxes etc.

The room is large, carpeted, and contains a couple of upright pianos a small organ, and a couple of china cabinets (!!!). Despite no acoustic treatment, I usually get a nice drum sound using the tackstars as overheads, one on snare, one on hats. I use the QKick on, you guessed it, kick, and then the tom mics clip onto the tom rims. To record bass I just DI the bass direct - and use an amp simulator. For guitars I use my JCM900 and use the T.Bone (v similar to sm57) or the MXL, and sometimes both in the classic setup of dynamic close, and condenser a few feet away. For vocals, I use the MXL along with a pop-shield about 6" or less from the singer.

I have two Terratec EWS88MTs (now Phase88) providing 8i/o channels each, recording to Nuendo. I monitor on Tannoy Reveals. Oh yeah and I have two Nady 8 Channel Pre-amps.

I've been asked to make a recording for a band - and they want it at a very high quality - but still want to record with me and at my place.

So I had the idea of renting some top quality microphones from a nearby hire company. I'd use:

AKG 414 - Overheads and Snare Bottom
SM57 or Beta 57 - Snare Top
Sennheiser MD441 - Toms
AKG D112 - Kick (inside)
EV RE20 - Kick (outside)

Neumann U87 - Guitar
SM57 - Guitar

RE20 - Bass (as well as DI)

Neumann U87 - Vocals.

The cost is not an issue. My question is:

Will the higher quality microphones accentuate the poor acoustics of my room? Will the recording actually suffer as a result of the mics? Are there any other problems that may arise?

I'll post a link to a recording I've done some time tomorrow, and maybe (if anyone's interested and I can be bothered) make a recording of the impulse response of the room.

Thanks in advance, Will
Click to expand...

If cost is not an issue then yes great mics will yield great recordings if you buy a new room, great pre-amps, and great mixer and a couple of engineers (maybe Glyn Johns and Sir George Martin).

Cost is not an issue, so go for it. :D :D :D

BTW: Get U47s and not U87s.
 
I was watching a Weird Al youtube video about doing his last album, lots of cool shots of really expensive mics. But the thing that I always notice is the distance they typically use from the mics vs. what I see in the average home studio setup. You aren't going to be able to back up 2 or 3 feet from the source in a bad room, and that will change the type of sounds you are able to record. You have to alter your techniques and your gear to compensate, so I wouldn't use a shopping list that was derived from studying the mics and techniques of the big studios, because you will have to do it differently.
 
outside? yeah...you'll have wind, you'll have plenty of cars...etc

a good room is the reason you get a good mic. the room makes things sound good, the mic makes it sound great.

i've heard a decent mic in a crappy room. it sounded like a tin can. try to find a room that isn't too small or big and you should be okay. and yes...just because it doesn't have auralex and 703 all over the place doesn't mean it will be horrible sounding. just try it out it different rooms.
 
cello_pudding said:
outside? yeah...you'll have wind, you'll have plenty of cars...etc
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I have lots of places I can record outside with no traffic and it's not always windy either. Sure, you'd have to plan a bit but removing the room is cool sometimes. I'm going to start doing it more often.
 
Firstly thanks for all the responses - it's interesting to see people's points of view on this.

To chessrock - I may not yet have all the experience I'd like - but I certainly would like to think I have the knowledge. I'm studying towards a degree in sound recording and have used these mics, in my suggested setup, all-be-it in a studio with better acoustics (I wouldn't necessarily say nice acoustics) and with a Neve desk. So I am confident I know what I am doing with the mics themselves. I'd love to be able to improve the acoustics of what is actually my dining room - but that simply wouldn't be practical.

I have thought about recording outside in the past - and like the idea. There are just too many birds around here, and being in the flightpath to Heathrow airport doesn't help either!

I also realise that a signal chain is most likely as weak as its weakest component - and that my pre-amps may well let me down, but starting off with a nicer signal (from better mics) would surely be a benefit - unless they pick up any gremlins better (i.e. reflections etc.).

When I said cost isn't an issue - it was with respect to the rental of microphones; the band would be paying for that. Otherwise obviously - I'd build a state of the art studio with the best equipment if I were minted!

Does anyone have any experience with a similar jump of microphone quality - without changing anything else?
 
danny.guitar said:
Are you speaking from experience?

You'd think what would matter more would be the mic's pattern and characteristics. A cheap SDC/omni mic will sound just as shitty (or even more) than a high end one in a shitty room. The expensive one might bring out more detail in the shittyness, but the recording quality will also probably sound better.

Edit: Also, things can be done to shitty rooms to make them better to record in. Hang up thick blankets and maybe put up a mattress or something in the corner to try and tame the reflections. And use the right kind of mics for the room/instrument.
Click to expand...

Of course I have personal experience. I have borrowed just about every mic the OP's listed at some point from somewhere to try. The results are about the same as the cheapies I have.

It's all a balancing act; the higher quality mic exposes bad room acoustics and uneven response/comb filtering/modal ringing, which may be masked by a cheaper mic. Thusly, if you improve the room with bass trapping, it makes sense to use that awesome mic because you're not, in a sense, showing everyone your flaws when you don't have to.

It's like looking at something with the naked eye rather than a microscope; if you're gonna look at it THAT close, it had better look good or you're going to wonder why you ever bought that stinkin' microscope. All that detail doesn't matter if it's BAD detail.
 
pezking said:
Does anyone have any experience with a similar jump of microphone quality - without changing anything else?
Click to expand...

There's no doubt that going from a MXL 990 to a $500+ condenser is going to make some form of improvement.

How the recording turns out will be entirely situational on your room & gear. Nobody can tell you exactly what is the right next step for you (short of hiring an acoustic technician, etc).

For recording acoustic guitar I started with a MXL V67 & Mackie preamps, heard how muddy it was on acoustic, then to an AKG C414 with Mackie preamps which got rid of the mud but then it was too crisp, then to a C414 with an Avalon M5.

At that point I could hear the room, made of cement and wood, which sounded bad. Then I treated the room by carpeting the walls, hanging foam and using egg crates and shoe boxes to deaden and spread the sound. That made a glaring improvement, but the C414 & M5 still sounded too crispy. Now I use the C414 with a Universal Audio 610 and it's been the most pleasing chain so far for acoustic as of yet.

If you want to record according to most of the folks on this board you'll have to make the changes to the room.

Given your situation (being unable to treat the room), I'd say have the band rent the mics and record the band live together in the room. That way the vibe & performance is there. It's pretty rare to hear recordings that include the room any more.

Sebadoh released a live recording in a small, crappy sounding club. The sonics were terrible but the performance was excellent. It's a good CD for that reason.

On that note, use a Shure SM7 on the vocals, not a condensor. It will help reduce the sound of the room and keep the other instruments out of the mic. Listen for phase between the mics as well.
 
danny.guitar said:
This is a home recording forum. The goal should be to learn how to make the most of what you have. Most answers to questions are "get a better mic", "treat your room", "get better monitors" etc. until you essentially have a real studio in your house.
Click to expand...
Can you please define for the jury what consititutes both "home recording" and a "real studio"? Jagged Little Pill was a "home recording"......it just happened to be recorded in Mutt Lange's "home studio" which is "high end" to the max. did you see the stuff that was auctioned out of Whitney Houston's "home studio"?

I just hate seeing the "this is home recording" crap thrown around b/c "home recording" to you might mean a cassette Fostex 4-track and some radio shack mics in an 8x8 bedroom, and to someone else it might mean a separate building on the property with floated floors, a neve board and a studer. it's ALL "HOME recording".

yes, make the most of what you got. absolutely. that i completely agree with. but at the same time, you should always strive to improve. in many respects this involves "fixing your room", "getting better gear" and "improving your skills" among a number of other things.

however, when someone starts talking about getting paid to record other people, they are entering the world of expectations. once cash is involved, it ceases to be "home recording" and enters the realm of "professional recording".


cheers,
wade
 
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