Hi HomeRecording, I need to mic upright piano

[JJJackFrost]

Also, I need to mic vocals. Piano and vocals.

My budget is 300. What the fuck should I do? I know nothing about microphones.

 

[Richard Monroe]

Yo Jack! Welcome to the board! There are a lot of answers, but it's very doable on your budget. Question #1- are we talking for live sound reinforcement, live recording, or studio recording? Also, do you need to do this on a regular basis (so you need to own the mics), or is this for, like, a single performance? I've got mics literally laying around that could do the job. Whatever the answers to the questions are, I can probably help you out. One more question- what will the mic (or mics) be plugged into, and does it provide phantom power?

If you are not familiar with mics, this may be Greek to you. Phantom power is a very small electrical charge which is sent back up the mic cable to the mic by certain devices, usually mixers, mic preamps, recording consoles, or PA systems. If the device has phantom power, it will have a switch that says either "phantom power" or "48V" (48 volts). Phantom power is needed to power most condenser mics, and a handful of other specialty mics.

Also, where (generally) are you located? And- how long do you have before you have to do this? If it's a one time deal, I can loan you the mics for the price of shipping, and give you suggestions on placement. If you need to own them, I can make realistic suggestions for buying them new or used. There's more than one way to do it, but it is a fairly standard problem. Also- what kind of mic stands do you have available? Provide answers to the above questions, and I'll happily help you out, at least if you are in the USA.-Richie

 

[Supercreep]

Rich is a stand-up guy. Welcome to HR.

 

[JJJackFrost]

Hey Richard, thanks a lot for the surprisingly friendly reply. To answer your questions

1. This will be used for studio recoding.

2. I'm thinking I'll need to own the mics, not necessarily because of the regular basis, but because I'm a perfectionist and I'll get very annoyed and go back and redo things for the stupidest reasons. That said, your offer of loaning them is incredibly generous.

I'm plugging this into a focusrite saffire, and yes it has phantom power. Only two preamps I think though, not sure. Haven't really used it much except with a friends dynamic.

As far as phantom power, I suppose me knowing nothing was not quite accurate. I know about phantom power and such, I guess more accurately I know as much as general FAQs on microphones can tell you, but have no experience in anything really to help me.

I'm in indianapolis right now (semi-unfortunately) but I'm originally from by Chicago, so I'm periodically up there. This is for my own personal benefit, so I have essentially limitless amounts of time. Again, I really appreciate the offer, but I think I need to own them.

I only have a single, somewhat broken mic stand, but I'm sure I could pick some up, new or on craigslist depending on what kinds I need.

Again, thanks a lot for the warm welcome.

 

[mattr]

Hmm, upright piano.

Assuming you won't be recording in a well-treated room, my recommendation would be to record with two mics inside the piano...

1. A boundary (or "PZM") mic taped to the inside face of the piano over the lower octaves.
2. A condenser mic on a stand pointing over the higher strings.

This will only work if the piano doesn't have bad hammer noise... some uprights I've recorded are great, but others I've tried recording before give a horrible tap sound when a hammer hits a string - I'm no piano tuner or expert so I couldn't tell you what would cause this, but it can be really quite annoying.

If this is the case, then a stereo pair of condensers behind or slightly above the player will probably be your best option. In this case I would keep the top closed and literally try to capture what the player (or someone sat behind them) would hear.

Same goes for mechanical noise from pedals. Sometimes they make nasty clunky. Again if this is the case then keep the lid closed and go for the room mic approach.


This is what I mean by a PZM mic:
http://www.mediacollege.com/audio/microphones/pzm.html

You can get some really expensive ones, but really if you can find an old, cheap, Radioshack (or "Realistic") branded one then that would be absolutely perfect
Reading this will probably clear up a few questions as to why I would recommend a really cheap one...!
http://www.loopers-delight.com/LDarchive/200706/msg00662.html

 

[Richard Monroe]

OK, we are getting somewhere. Now we can begin to narrow down how to go about it. When mic'ing a standup (or console/spinet), the live setup usually involves one or two dynamics close on the soundboard in the back. This works for a live setup, as it places the piano between the vocalist and the piano mic(s), and allows you to close mic the soundboard, so you don't get a lot of bleed from the vocalist to the piano mic(s). This is not the ideal way to do it in the studio.

First, you have to choke down some reality. With only 2 inputs, and wanting to get the detailed sound a studio lives for, the *right* way to do it is to record the piano and the vocals ****separately****. This prevents microphone bleed and allows you to record the piano with 2 mics, which may or may not be a stereo recording. A piano is a big thing, and like the elephant and the blind men, placing microphones in different places yields very different results.

Unfortunately, studio recording is the most expensive of the various scenarios, and your budget is very limited. In a more perfect world, I would choose to mic the piano with 2 small diaphragm condensers, and then the vocals with one large diaphragm condenser. On a $300 budget, we are stretching it to do 2 mics, so I would go with 2 large diaphragm condensers for the piano, and then use one of them for vocals. And- you are really going to need a couple of boom stands and cables, so we can't go much over $100 apiece for the mics.

Furthermore, I am not a fan of most wicked-cheap options, which usually involves Nady or Behringer mics. Although I'm not usually a fan of studio packs, here's one option that gets you pretty damn close to your $300- Two of these-

http://www.8thstreet.com/product.asp?ProductCode=70712&Category=Microphones

That gets you 2 mics with the boom stands, cables, and shock mounts, which are applicable for both piano and vocals, although for vocals, I strongly recommend adding a pop filter, such as-

http://www.8thstreet.com/product.asp?ProductCode=31265&Category=Recording_Accessories

There are less expensive options, such as:

http://www.8thstreet.com/product.asp?ProductCode=30178&Category=Microphones

Frankly, if I was going the Marshall/MXL route, I would prefer a pair of these:

http://www.8thstreet.com/product.asp?ProductCode=6458&Category=Microphones

and buy the stands, cables. shock mounts, and a pop filter separately, but that would put you over budget by a fair amount.

Here's another option, which gets you 2 small diaphragms and one large, with the pop filter and a shock mount for the large diaphragm, by CAD:

http://www.8thstreet.com/product.asp?ProductCode=30526&Category=Microphones

Of course, there are many other options, but those are my best bets. I personally would go with the B1's or the V67's, but I could probably show you a hundred options that would work. How you place these mics depends a lot on your room. I would place the 2 mics overhead with the top open. one on the bass side, and one on the treble side. Basically, the better your room sounds, the farther away from the piano the mics can be.

Once you've settled on some mics and set them up, you can tell us more about your room and what problems you are experiencing, and I can suggest other things to try. Note this, though- There are as many mic decisions on a budget and as many placement configurations as there are people on this board, and a whole lot of people will likely begin to chime in with multiple suggestions, many of which will be just as valid as mine. It *will* get confusing, because there are simply a ton of ways to do it. I have recommended about 3 of the thousands of possible options. Keep the info coming, and I, at least, will be there for you. There is no perfect solution. I've got about $10,000 worth of microphones, and I have only scratched the surface. I don't think you can go horribly wrong with any of the mics I have listed, as they are all perfectly good cheap mics from respected companies that you can resell for a fair fraction of what you paid for them if they don't work out for you.

Note- all the links I have used are from 8th street, which is one of my favorite online outfits to deal with. If you can beat their prices significantly elsewhere, go for it, but they've been pretty good to me over the years. Best of luck.-Richie

 

[JJJackFrost]

Alright, well thanks a lot for the suggestions guys, but right now I'm leaning toward going the two condenser route that richard talked about.

Well, I guess the stands are an issue; however I'm not anticipating paying full price. I might even be able to borrow some indefinitely so that's not an issue in the cost.

So your ideal setup is undoubtedly two mics? In that case, does the extra hundred or so open up my options any more?

Also, considering the used market, periodically I've been able to find AT4041s and Rode Nt5s around. I mean, I'm not saying they'll always be there, but these consistently turn up. Would the performance I could get from them be worth the 4 hour drive to pick them up?

 

[violist]

recording upright piano

I'm interested in this subject as the recording I did of a movement of my Viola Concerto was done on an upright, the only time I've recorded an upright. I had a couple of Sennheiser e914 mics on a bar (ortf) above the player, a bit to the left, pointing down into the piano with the top open. The recording was done in an old apartment with a rather unstable floor, so movement from myself (playing viola) and the pianist got picked up unfortunately. I used a little eq to boost bass frequencies; I'd recorded a nice Steinway D for other recordings so was trying to push it towards that sound as a model, otherwise without eq it was sounding very light in the bass. I also have the original orchestral version in my head too...

 

[tdukex]

JF, have you considered a keyboard controller and a soft synth? Record direct, no mics necessary.

 

[JJJackFrost]

Oh believe me, I've tried every way possible to use samples. They just don't work for me unfortunately.

Anyone have opinions on the 4041? anyone?

 

[Richard Monroe]

I have no problem with used mics, and NT5's would be OK, although I prefer the Studio Projects C-4's in that price range, because they come with omni capsules. The problem is, small diaphragm pencil mics make pretty poor vocal mics, as a rule. One alternative is a class of small diaphragm mics in larger housings, which are good for piano, and can work pretty well on vocals as well. My favorites are AKG C2000B and Audio Technica AT4033.-Richie

 

[JJJackFrost]

Thanks a lot to all of you for your suggestions and help; it's really helped me get a better idea of what I need.