Hi end mic vs Chinese mic question

[Neelix]

i'm convinced you can get the same results out of a 60$ marshal as an elum

Yes, if it's the right mic for that voice or instrument. I think I know the one you're talking about, and they sound great, a lot better than the 200-300.00 AKG's mentioned earlier. The big issue on some of the cheaper mics is that any 10 mics could sound quite different from eachother, or have a higher chance of having a bad one mixed in, whereas the more expensive mics have much tighter spec tolerances and quality control. That costs more for a manufacturer, so that cost is passed on in a higher price to the consumer.

Also the cost of the brand logo plates... Some of the plates alone cost 1000.00 to manufacture, just to put the company logo on there. Doesn't that explain the 3000.00 price on the extreme upper end stuff? (Ok, I can see spending 500.00-800.00 on a killer mic, but after that I just don't get it...)
[yeah, now I'm just being facicious... (sp?)]

 

[chessrock]

Besides upgrades to the source itself and room accoustics in which they're performed, upgrading the mics (and mic technique) will give you the greatest improvements, sonically. If you're currently using cheap Chinese-manufactured mics, you'll probably hear a big difference in your recordings by upgrading. I wouldn't hesitate at all. Better mics make better recordings.

To which Alan replies:

If you think spending a bunch of money will yeild tremendous results over an affordable mic in a bad room...Hey fine....I already said in my post Hell yeah go for it. You just love to fight man...

Whatever, Alan.

 

[mshilarious]

Or can you not read....

Well, considering that the OP said:

I'm building a project studion for my band. Sound wise the room is an 8/10. It's properly treated and sound good. The system I'm using is PT digi002. The band gear is all top end - the best, really really good sounding stuff.

And you said:

I think great mikes in a bad room with a bad engineer will still sound bad.

I think chessrock's post was much more helpful to the OP. Unless you are volunteering your services as an engineer


kats, if you buy the TLM103 and MD421 you were thinking about, and add the pair of SM81s that scrubs mentioned, you will not be disappointed. I don't know anything about Apex, I'll leave that to your judgment.

 

[chessrock]

Absolutely! There was a very unprofessional tirade (sp?) yesterday between a couple of reps, and while quite enjoyable to read, it made both look bad.

I couldn't agree more.

 

[Neelix]

I think part of what Alan may be getting at is that just blindly throwing a 1000.00 mic in there won't automatically fix the problem. If there are serious room issues, or problems with the instrument or micing technique, it won't matter how much you spend, your end product will still have problems. But with a decent room, good instrument, and the right micing technique, you can have great results with a cheaper mic. The great thing is that now we can all afford to pick up a handful of various quality mics that all sound a little different instead of having to make that one 1000.00 mic work for every vocalist that comes in the door (which just doesn't work!). The SP may sound great on one person and suck on the next, so no biggie, just break out the next mic in your bag and try it.

A friend of mine that has a really nice assortment of gear, including a lot of mics from low to high end, has really been an advocate of keeping things in balance. It's kind of pointless to have one thing that's over the top when other things in the chain are low end. Fix up the room, get a decent instrument, study and try various techniques, and get the best balance of gear you can - not a 58 into an Avalon pre..., not a U87 into a Nady pre - decent mic, decent pre (plenty of great sounding boxes for 200.00-500.00), good recorder or interface, but nothing over the top unless you have the money to get everything up there and can justify it in the end. You'll get much better results with good solid mid-grade gear than with a killer mic into a crappy pre, or killer mic and pre in a crappy room with bad technique.

We're lucky today in that we don't HAVE to spend a fortune to get great gear. Now we can afford to get the gold plated mic stand that's sure to make everything sound a little better...

 

[mshilarious]

I couldn't agree more.

Are we talking about the Brent Casey screed? That was beautiful, man. I wish we had a lot more posts like that.

 

[chessrock]

Are we talking about the Brent Casey screed? That was beautiful, man. I wish we had a lot more posts like that.

Hey, I love a good Cat fight as much as the next guy ... from a purely white trash entertainment standpoint, I give it 4 1/2 stars. But from a PR standpoint, it was pretty low class.

 

[DJL]

I'm having trouble making up my mind on a couple of mic purchases I'm about to make. A little background first:

I'm building a project studion for my band. Sound wise the room is an 8/10. It's properly treated and sound good. The system I'm using is PT digi002. The band gear is all top end - the best, really really good sounding stuff. The style of music is classic rock (I use the term very loosely). The preamp/compressor I'll be using is leaning heavily towards the Universal Audio LA-610.

The mics in my stash currently are:
2 Senhauser 835's
2 Senhauser 855's
1 AKG C1000
2 Shure Sm57's
1 AT 4033
1 Apex 430
1 Apex 410
2 Apex 185 small condensors.
1 d12e
Now to my question. I'm thinking of upgrading the small condensors, purchasing a Senhauser MD421 (gutiar amp), and perhaps another vocal mic(TLM 103).

Apex's are a low priced Chinese mic and my friend at the music store says don't bother upgrading the the 185's (I'm usinmg them for drum o/h's) and highly suggests Apex valve mic for vocals etc (it's under $300).

Now I don't mind spending the extra cash and he sells the high end stuff but is "down selling" me...that's a switch eh hehehe.

Oh yeah the question! With the system I'm using, is it a waste of money to buy a Neumann TLM 103 for vocals and perhaps spending $500-$800 on better o/h's (FYI: I'm micing the drums 2 O/H's, 1 kick, 1 snare, and 1 room)OR is my system limited and won't really pick up the nuances of some of the better mics out there. - My concern is the converters I guess. I'm not a huge "cork sniffer" and if the Chinese stuff isn't that noticable inferior in my signal chain I won't bother upgrading and perhaps save some dough for better pre's or an apogeee converter etc.

Your input is greatly appreciated, I'm a greenhorn in this area

Hi Kats, now that the thread has cooled down some and seeing how I’ve gone/going through this myself I’d like to express my opinion. I recommend auditioning top name brand mics and buying the best you can afford. You said “The band gear is all top end - the best, really really good sounding stuff.” so you know the deal… the same deal goes for mics.


EDIT:
Oh, and the Neumann TLM103 is ok, but isn't my favorite. The Sennheiser MD421 is a "Must Have" mic IMO.

 

[kats]

Thank you for that DJL, that's what I'm looking for. I am/was a bit worried that the digi002 converters might be a choke point, but I could always rent/borrow until I can afford the upgrade. But if qualiy mics will make a difference from the get go, I'd prefer investing there to start.

 

[Richard Monroe]

Excuse me, Neelix, but there isn't a problem to fix. Kats is trying to make an album here, and the usual political/marketing/personality issues are just getting in the way of helping him. Yo Kats! Sure, you can make a good album with cheap mics, Chinese or otherwise. It will take very good engineering. It's easier to make good mics sound good than cheap mics. Every project studio that's any good is an unholy combination of some cheap gear that works, some midpriced gear that works, and a few carefully selected pieces of gear that really are top of the line. You've already got perfectly good cheap mics. Now buy some that rock, to match the rest of that kickass signal chain. I confess, TLM103 would not be my first choice. For a workhorse, I like AKG C414XLS or Shure KSM44. For small diaphragms, I like Josephson C42's, and Neumann KM184 (Schoeps and DPA too rich for my blood). For a main vocal mic, consider Soundelux U195, or better yet, break the bank and buy a Lawson L47 MKII. One really good compromise between a workhorse and a vocal mic is Soundelux ifet7. You could do a lot worse.
Like Alan said, what the hell? If you've got the money, buy a Brauner. Trust me. It's a pure joy to have a few real mics in a studio. They get used again and again, along with some cheaper mics that are in the right place at the right time. To hell with the salesman, get tools that you don't have to doubt. If the mic and the pre are really good, you know your problems are with the room and the engineering. That narrows down the problem shooting problem. I'm with Chessrock on this one. No, cheap mics are not equivalent to expensive ones. Just make sure the expensive mics you buy are the ones you actually need.-Richie

 

[sdelsolray]

My suggestion is to get high quality gear. Period. That goes for mics as well as converters, or just about anything else. If you don't have enough $$ to upgrade the mics and converters, do one now, do the other in the future.

BTW, the 002 converters are decent. If you need 8x8 ADAT AD and DA, that can get pretty spendy. The RME ADI-8 Pro is as noticable upgrade, excellent price.

Regarding the mics, check out the Peluso mics before you buy anything. The Apex mics suck, just like most (not all) cheap mics. Lose 'em.

 

[Neelix]

Excuse me, Neelix, but there isn't a problem to fix. Kats is trying to make an album here, and the usual political/marketing/personality issues are just getting in the way of helping him.

Richard, my point was that he CAN get some killer results with the cheap mics, and that in some cases a choice in mics could come down to a political issue considering how much alike they sound. Also, as far as problems to fix, my point is that he should also look at room conditions, mic technique, etc. Sounds like they have killer gear, and they should keep everything in balance as much as possible (don't mic a Mesa in a bathroom, don't mic it in a great room with a 30.00 dynamic either).

 

[Richard Monroe]

And what I'm saying is that Kats is a victim of DJL vs. Studio Projects politics, which aren't helpful to him. Yes, they've got some killer gear, and that signal chain begs, no, screams, to start with mics that are in the same league. There are those here that believe that spending a lot of money on mics is a waste. Some are making the argument that without the great room acoustics and highly developed engineering skills, the capabilities of those mics are not very relevent. Others really believe that a $300 mic is equivalent to an Elam, which they can't even spell, because they have no experience with any such mic.
Others are just jealous, because they don't have the resources or are not able or willing to make the comittment to own such gear. They are made comfortable by the delusion that great albums can be made with cheap gear, so they can justify themselves to themselves. Very few of the people making such claims are people who own high end mics or pres. Now, I happen to own a Rode NTK. It is a perfectly good $500 tube mic. Chessrock owns a B.L.U.E. Cactus, which is a perfectly good $3,000 or so tube mic. I doubt Chessrock is going to sell his Cactus and buy an NTK because perfectly good recordings can be made with a Chinese/Australian hybrid mic.
In recording, like car racing, 85% of the money is spent on the last 10% of performance. Just because a Honda Civic is a perfecty good car, starts every morning, and gets you to work, does not mean it will qualify for the Indianapolis 500. It might make sense to buy the Civic first, if you don't know how to drive. And probably, somewhere in that Indy racer, you'll find some component that is also in a Civic, because it works. Similarly, in the recording signal chain of a great album, you'll find a cheap mic, because it works. Kats is obviously trying to enter a race, and he already owns a Civic. People are telling him he shouldn't invest the money, because he's not a good enough driver, and his practice track is inadequate. While that may or may not be true, before he's done, he'll need a Formula 1 car.
I always disagree with the people who say you should not buy great gear until you've learned to record well with cheap gear. It's easier to learn with good gear, if you can afford it, because it doesn't allow you to blame the gear for the things you can't do. This guy is trying to achieve professional results, and will need professional tools. For what he's doing, an investment of $10,000-12,000 in mics alone would be very reasonable. And as Alan suggested, that makes sense if he's trying to go professional. That's his stated goal, because if he produces a really professional project, that's where he'll be. I'm in the same boat, and I've got another $20,000 or so to go. Go Kats!-Richie

 

[rdozz]

I would like to add the AT4047 for vocals. AT4047 to RNP or The Brick is a real sweet combination. I am saving up for a Kiwi or an AT4060, I tested these mics in my studio and they are amazing. I have up-graded most of my gear from cheap gear to mid-level gear and I hear a big difference.

Rob

 

[Neelix]

Richard - I agree with you in that he should start with good gear (and if all their other gear is top notch then I'm sure they have a budget for good mics). I just feel nobody should blindly buy a product because it does have a big price and expect it to be the perfect product. The 4047 mentioned above is a great example of a mic that is very different from most mics in the 400.00-1000.00 range, and while at the lower end of that price range would possibly suit a specific voice much better than the 1000.00 transparent mic. They're at a point that they should actually try everything available to them and not be afraid to buy the mics that work best for them, whether they're 300.00 or 1500.00, or anywhere in between.

Similar to your comparison on the Avalon and JoeMeek stuff recently. Very different price points and very different public perceptions (although both regarded highly). It was interesting to see that the JoeMeek held its own and fit certain tasks better. Very glad you did that review, by the way. I was about to pick up the older TwinQcs, and after reading your post, I held off and probably saved myself from having to upgrade later. I'm going to look at the new one first!

 

[mshilarious]

I missed where kats said he had $10K to spend on mics. From what I read, he was looking at about $2K. Maybe we should ask

 

[chessrock]

I missed where kats said he had $10K to spend on mics. From what I read, he was looking at about $2K. Maybe we should ask

Smartass.

 

[giraffe]

Others really believe that a $300 mic is equivalent to an Elam, which they can't even spell, because they have no experience with any such mic.

yes i spelled elam wrong, but in my defence i'll probably never own one

 

[borntoplease]

if i may, i would like to put my two cents in. i just bougt a digi 002 and a mac G5. both of which now i can say i am happy with. i bought a pair of earthworks sr71s and an ADK Vienna vocal mic. if you dont know about these mics, research them. they are both VERY respected in both the pro audio world and the home audio world.

heres the catch...

i spent about 700 dollars on those 3 mics... not a lot, but i got a steal of a deal on the earthworks ( ) and i neglected to leave in my budget any money for acoustic treatment because i just figured it wasnt that important for my "home recordings". well let me tell you i was wrong. i couldnt figure out why all my recordings were sounding like shit. then i realized it was my room. and then i realized one more thing... that as many times as people had warned me that a mic can only be as good as the source/room... i hadnt listened to them. and i found out the hard way that thats very true. then i made another mistake. i thought the best thing to do was to "kill the room" so i went out and spent another couple hundred on acoustic foam. nope, thats still didnt work. now it just sounded like my recording were done in a vacum...

so... what did i do? i got on the internet and researched acoustic treatment. i highly recomend reading this page http://www.ethanwiner.com/acoustics.html its just about everything you need to know about treating your room. READ IT!!!!!! you'll regret it if you dont!! especially with the SMALL room you are recording in. there is bound to be plenty of bass build up in the corners and im guessing plenty of flutter echo.

thats just my input...

and remeber its true, no matter what you think:
A MIC IS ONLY AS GOOD AS THE ROOM ITS IN!!! (and of course the engineer who using it)

 

[kats]

I appreciate the points fellas...and believe me it's helping me alot. Even the arguing is good

I should add a few points:
I think I'm pretty lucky with the room. I sent the dimentions and contruction materials to aurlex and it fit within a foot of their simulated ideal dimenions. The room is still shoe box shaped so bass traps etc were needed. I didn't go on the cheap in this regard and treated the room with the Genesis True Trap systems that included a healthy amount of diffusors as to not "kill" the room.

As far as the vocal mic was concerned, the reason I was thinking TLM 103 is because I'll be using a UA LA-610 as a preamp and can get that warm "tubey" sound without using a valve mic and then I can use the 103 for other applications as well. If I'm far off on this *guess* let me know. Just a FYI, the singer doesn't need to be flattered, he's an engineer's dream come true - he's really that good.

I'm pretty much sold on the MD421 for my guitar amp (Marshall 1974x handwired 18watt and a 63 vibroverb brownface). I already own a mint vintage D12e I can use for kick drum (I haven't tried it on bass, but I've heard it's great there too). I'm thinking I can experiment wih the 103 as a second mic on the amp as well, perhaps further back to capture some of the room.

As far as the SD condensors they will be primarily used for drum OH's. They may double for acoustic mics, but again I think (and may be wrong let me know) the 103 might work here as well. The acoustics are both Martin D28's one newer model and one early '60's made from Brazillian rosewood. The newer model d28 was picked by me out of a dozen and is extremely rich - I hear a 12 string in the back of my head when I play it heheh) the older Martin is a classic.

So for me it's basically coming down to O/H's and either getting a couple of C4's or Neumann 184's or what do you think about skipping the SD's all together and using 2 103's for the OH's (the extra 103 is close in price to two 184's)?