Hi end mic vs Chinese mic question

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kats

New member
I'm having trouble making up my mind on a couple of mic purchases I'm about to make. A little background first:

I'm building a project studion for my band. Sound wise the room is an 8/10. It's properly treated and sound good. The system I'm using is PT digi002. The band gear is all top end - the best, really really good sounding stuff. The style of music is classic rock (I use the term very loosely). The preamp/compressor I'll be using is leaning heavily towards the Universal Audio LA-610.

The mics in my stash currently are:
2 Senhauser 835's
2 Senhauser 855's
1 AKG C1000
2 Shure Sm57's
1 AT 4033
1 Apex 430
1 Apex 410
2 Apex 185 small condensors.
1 d12e
Now to my question. I'm thinking of upgrading the small condensors, purchasing a Senhauser MD421 (gutiar amp), and perhaps another vocal mic(TLM 103).

Apex's are a low priced Chinese mic and my friend at the music store says don't bother upgrading the the 185's (I'm usinmg them for drum o/h's) and highly suggests Apex valve mic for vocals etc (it's under $300).

Now I don't mind spending the extra cash and he sells the high end stuff but is "down selling" me...that's a switch eh hehehe.

Oh yeah the question! With the system I'm using, is it a waste of money to buy a Neumann TLM 103 for vocals and perhaps spending $500-$800 on better o/h's (FYI: I'm micing the drums 2 O/H's, 1 kick, 1 snare, and 1 room)OR is my system limited and won't really pick up the nuances of some of the better mics out there. - My concern is the converters I guess. I'm not a huge "cork sniffer" and if the Chinese stuff isn't that noticable inferior in my signal chain I won't bother upgrading and perhaps save some dough for better pre's or an apogeee converter etc.

Your input is greatly appreciated, I'm a greenhorn in this area :)
 
cork sniffer....LOL

greenhorn? well atleast your wallet is seasoned. as for the drum overheads....there are some other choices. matched pair of studio projects C4s, matched pair of oktava mk012s or a matched pair of mxl 603s. the md421. thats all well and good if you only have one guitarist lol. personally i'd be jealous if my other guitarist got the md421 and i didnt. the sm57 or a senheiser e609 could also work on guitar. as for vocals...i'm not sure how your singer sounds but if you dont have to have a neumann mic then you can get a couple of good vocal mics for the price of one tlm103 i think
 
The singer records very well. He has a higher pitched voice, but a real smooth top end - never shrill. Actually I should add he has amazing tone and is sought after for an extremely wide range of studio work. I don't know why he even wastes his time with me hehehehe - I think he like my tunes :)

As far as the MD421 is concerned, we can share as we'll be laying the parts down separately.

Regarding the C4's, that's what I wanted to buy and my friend at the shop says "what for, the Apex's are fine" (they're a matched set that sell under $200) hehehehe. That's actually the main reason I'm posting - I have room in my budget to upgrade AND I'm in the mood to spend money :D. But I do want results if I spend the money and am concerned that he knows something I don't - that's why I make reference to any system choke points I may have that might make these purchases moot.
 
You mention a budget up to $800 for SDCs. At that price, you could pick up a pair of Shure SM81s. I don't think you'd be disappointed with those, and they are certainly better than the Apex. Sounds like your dealer has some reason to try and sell you some assy mics.
 
kats said:
Oh yeah the question! With the system I'm using, is it a waste of money to buy a Neumann TLM 103 for vocals and perhaps spending $500-$800 on better o/h's (FYI: I'm micing the drums 2 O/H's, 1 kick, 1 snare, and 1 room)OR is my system limited and won't really pick up the nuances of some of the better mics out there. - My concern is the converters I guess. I'm not a huge "cork sniffer" and if the Chinese stuff isn't that noticable inferior in my signal chain I won't bother upgrading and perhaps save some dough for better pre's or an apogeee converter etc.
Click to expand...

Besides upgrades to the source itself and room accoustics in which they're performed, upgrading the mics (and mic technique) will give you the greatest improvements, sonically. If you're currently using cheap Chinese-manufactured mics, you'll probably hear a big difference in your recordings by upgrading. I wouldn't hesitate at all. Better mics make better recordings.
 
chessrock said:
If you're currently using cheap Chinese-manufactured mics, you'll probably hear a big difference in your recordings by upgrading. I wouldn't hesitate at all. Better mics make better recordings.
Click to expand...

Well I guess this is an opinion Chessrock. For me, I would not want to guess what anyone "will" hear. I have no idea what is inside their ears... :eek: :)

I think great mikes in a bad room with a bad engineer will still sound bad. Not that a Chinese mic or one made by Mattel will sound any better or worse.

Great mikes are mikes that work well in a specific situation, or accomplish what the engineer, producer or artist was trying to accomplish. I really don't think it matters what brand it is, or where it was made. A great mic either does the job, or it don't, just as an affordable mic can do the same.

There are still many low costing microphones that will do an equally acceptable job as an expensive mic, given the proper conditions. By all means if money is no object, hell go for it, especially if you rely on making your living from a studio.

Of course this too is my opinion.... :)
 
alanhyatt said:
I really don't think it matters what brand it is, or where it was made. A great mic either does the job, or it don't, just as an affordable mic can do the same.

There are still many low costing microphones that will do an equally acceptable job as an expensive mic, given the proper conditions.
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Alright ... so following your logic, Alan, I suppose it isn't necessary to waste one's money on decent mics like the Studio Projects when you can buy Behringer or Nady for less money? Very interesting, I guess we'll have to keep that one in mind.

And yes, I do realize that's a very DJL thing to ask. :D
 
chessrock said:
Alright ... so following your logic, Alan, I suppose it isn't necessary to waste one's money on decent mics like the Studio Projects when you can buy Behringer or Nady for less money? Very interesting, I guess we'll have to keep that one in mind.

And yes, I do realize that's a very DJL thing to ask. :D
Click to expand...


That's now what he meant at all. It's just that today, the difference between a 200.00 mic and a 1000.00 mic is marginal in a lot of ways. Overall, technology is so good now that it's a matter of how well a mic does on a specific voice or instrument that matters, and those that can't afford a 1000.00 mic can still get a mic that can produce staggering results for a lot less. His point is if you have the money, sure, go for it, but if not, you still have some wonderful options out there, whether they be Studio Projects (which are among the best in their price range), MXL, SE, Oktava, or any of the other quality brands out there (but there are some crappy ones as well).
 
Our discussions are constantly being monitored by marketing entities.

Oh brother... here we go again. :(
 
Neelix said:
That's now what he meant at all. It's just that today, the difference between a 200.00 mic and a 1000.00 mic is marginal in a lot of ways.
Click to expand...


Alright, I'm following you. So following your logic ... if the difference between a $200 and a $1,000 mic is marginal (in a lot of ways), then the difference between a $200 and a $75 mic must be even more marginal.

Hence, I would assume that great recordings can still be made using Nadys, Behringers, and the bottom rung MXL mics. So I'm just wondering what the benefit is, then, of owning a Studio Projects mic when these other brands I mention have, in some cases, much less expensive offerings that are probably equally as capable in many ways.

Just a thought.
 
cellardweller said:
C'mon DJL... Stay with me now... ass up/head down... err... head down/legs up... no.....

damnit, you know what I mean :rolleyes:
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I hate marketing on hr.com... but, ok bro... I'll keep my ass down and ears up on this thread for a while.
 
chessrock said:
Alright, I'm following you. So following your logic ... if the difference between a $200 and a $1,000 mic is marginal (in a lot of ways), then the difference between a $200 and a $75 mic must be even more marginal.

Hence, I would assume that great recordings can still be made using Nadys, Behringers, and the bottom rung MXL mics. So I'm just wondering what the benefit is, then, of owning a Studio Projects mic when these other brands I mention have, in some cases, much less expensive offerings that are probably equally as capable in many ways.

Just a thought.
Click to expand...


And a perfectly justified thought. We're fotunate today to have the options we do at these prices. 15 years ago, you either used an SM58 on vocals or you spent a lot of money on a large mic, and there wasn't really anything in between. The point is that if you have the money, then spend as much as you want - you're going to get a great mic. But if you only have a hundred bucks or so, try out a bunch of the mics in that range. Again, different mics will work better for different voices or rooms. The 75.00 might work better for one person where the 200.00 might work better for another. There are certainly some 75.00-100.00 mics that suck regardless, just as there are some 300-400.00 mics that suck (a couple of AKG models come to mind that often get slammed on here).

Another point that I think should come up is whether or not you want to support a specific company. If companies X Y and Z all have pretty much the same quality mic with the same overall sound and features at around the same price, which one would you rather give your money to? Right now everyone is copying someone else to at least some degree, but I don't feel comfortable giving my money to Behringer in particular because of their blatent disregard for other companies' hard work. Their entire mind set is "copy it, make it stupid cheap, and destroy the competition on price." Their products are very inconsistent, and they have done a ton of damage to other manufacturers and the entire retail segment of the industry. They have a right to run their business and make money, but the way they do it just doesn't sit well for me. It's companies like that that forced Mackie to start doing China imported products, when they used to be a killer US made line. They had the choices of close or follow suit. Now we're all stuck with 10 brands of the exact same product (Phonic made mixers with 10 available logos).
 
kats said:
I'm having trouble making up my mind on a couple of mic purchases I'm about to make. A little background first:

I'm building a project studion for my band. Sound wise the room is an 8/10. It's properly treated and sound good. The system I'm using is PT digi002. The band gear is all top end - the best, really really good sounding stuff. The style of music is classic rock (I use the term very loosely). The preamp/compressor I'll be using is leaning heavily towards the Universal Audio LA-610.

The mics in my stash currently are:
2 Senhauser 835's
2 Senhauser 855's
1 AKG C1000
2 Shure Sm57's
1 AT 4033
1 Apex 430
1 Apex 410
2 Apex 185 small condensors.
1 d12e
Now to my question. I'm thinking of upgrading the small condensors, purchasing a Senhauser MD421 (gutiar amp), and perhaps another vocal mic(TLM 103).

Apex's are a low priced Chinese mic and my friend at the music store says don't bother upgrading the the 185's (I'm usinmg them for drum o/h's) and highly suggests Apex valve mic for vocals etc (it's under $300).

Now I don't mind spending the extra cash and he sells the high end stuff but is "down selling" me...that's a switch eh hehehe.

Oh yeah the question! With the system I'm using, is it a waste of money to buy a Neumann TLM 103 for vocals and perhaps spending $500-$800 on better o/h's (FYI: I'm micing the drums 2 O/H's, 1 kick, 1 snare, and 1 room)OR is my system limited and won't really pick up the nuances of some of the better mics out there. - My concern is the converters I guess. I'm not a huge "cork sniffer" and if the Chinese stuff isn't that noticable inferior in my signal chain I won't bother upgrading and perhaps save some dough for better pre's or an apogeee converter etc.

Your input is greatly appreciated, I'm a greenhorn in this area :)
Click to expand...

Kats,
i've used a bunch of those APEX mics, and still own one (the 430). They are ok, but thats it. Mics costing the same as the apex, even some selected chinese ones, sound better to my ear. I would not hesisitate to sell them apex mics, and invest in something better, whether it be a new mic or convertor or whatever. If i had enough cash, i would snag that freaking neuman mic!

P.S. Your thread here has all the signs of quickly turning into something that has absolutely nothing to do with your original question. Consider copying and pasting to start a new thread to get more focused answers, or just weed throught the multitude of crap that will ensue and search for the gems..
 
DJL said:
I hate marketing on hr.com...
Click to expand...
I don't like the idea either. If a manufacturer's rep provides good data, inside information and application advice, fantastic. If - as has been the case on another site - he contributes to the board so he won't be moderated, disseminates bogus, self-serving nonsense and tries to intimidate anyone who criticizes the product, he needs to go.

But back to the point, the difference in a cheap condenser microphone and one a few hundred dollars more these days is largely one of product consistency. If you want to cherry-pick through, say, a bunch of Oktavas, you may indeed get a microphone with genuinely good sound. If you buy a $1000 microphone, you don't have to cherry-pick...or at least not as much.

That's been my experience and is also what I've been told by an authority whose information has always been consistently valuable.

Never mind that a $50 LDC is lightyears better than the funky dynamics the musician in a project studio was using a couple of decades ago.
 
Neelix said:
Another point that I think should come up is whether or not you want to support a specific company. If companies X Y and Z all have pretty much the same quality mic with the same overall sound and features at around the same price, which one would you rather give your money to?
Click to expand...

That's a very good point you make there.

And some of us have what I feel to be very legitimate reasons for not supporting certain companies, based on our personal dealings with them, and how they conduct themselves during public discourse. And that's our choice to do so.
 
chessrock said:
Besides upgrades to the source itself and room accoustics in which they're performed, upgrading the mics (and mic technique) will give you the greatest improvements, sonically. If you're currently using cheap Chinese-manufactured mics, you'll probably hear a big difference in your recordings by upgrading. I wouldn't hesitate at all. Better mics make better recordings.
Click to expand...

Good advice right there...
 
chessrock said:
That's a very good point you make there.

And some of us have what I feel to be very legitimate reasons for not supporting certain companies, based on our personal dealings with them, and how they conduct themselves during public discourse. And that's our choice to do so.
Click to expand...

Absolutely! There was a very unprofessional tirade (sp?) yesterday between a couple of reps, and while quite enjoyable to read, it made both look bad... Both companies make fantastic mics, and they're not just copycat companies. I've worked with both companies as a dealer and as an end user, and I know they're both passionate about their products, but that got way out of hand.

On the point of consistency at various price points - There's some great stuff on that in the huge thread at the top of this category. They go into specific specs that will deviate a lot more from mic to mic at the cheaper ends, and how close they are at the higher end, and how these specs are GROSSLY fudged by a lot of manufacturers! Anyone that hasn't been through that thread should take an afternoon off and read it (that's how long it will take!). You'll know a lot more about mics and their uses in the end!
 
chessrock said:
Alright ... so following your logic, Alan, I suppose it isn't necessary to waste one's money on decent mics like the Studio Projects when you can buy Behringer or Nady for less money? Very interesting, I guess we'll have to keep that one in mind.

And yes, I do realize that's a very DJL thing to ask. :D
Click to expand...

Dude, you always jump right in to saying something I did not say. Why do you always try to analize things differently then the manner in which it was said? Ok, take it how you want Bro, but the fact is, a good mic is a bad mic in a bad room on bad talent and a bad engineer. So is an affordable mic. I don't care what brand it is or how much it will cost.

If you think spending a bunch of money will yeild tremendous results over an affordable mic in a bad room...Hey fine....I already said in my post Hell yeah go for it. You just love to fight man...

As for DJL, what marketing? I said nothing about our mics...Or can you not read....
 
i'm convinced you can get the same results out of a 60$ marshal as an elum

edit: you know i'm kidding, dont you?
 
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