Hey Light...or anyone else who knows their intonation well. I stress well.

[Outlaws]

Whats the best means of learning serious intonation? I can do a "half assed save myself $25" job, and it is suitable for the most part. But I want to do a a job that the rock gods would be proud of.

Example. My '52 RI tele. I have the compensated 3 piece bridge. So I have to move the second piece back by two 22 thousands-th of an inch after I get the first piece in place. Like I have a ruler for that. lol

But then I got an LP so I will be moving things by one thousandth of an inch (from what I have read), so I need some precision stuff for that.


I have a Peterson VS1, so all things considered, I have a decent tuning setup IMO. Not the real deal, but close.

I see this thing
http://www.stewmac.com/shop/Tools/Measuring_tools/String_Action_Gauge.html

But I don't know how much that is going to help if I can't get the initial bridge piece to its exact spot since a normal ruler would be needed, and that isn't always dead on...what with their thick mofo lines and extended end pieces. (I am sure someone has a ruler like that...there is a 10th of an inch extra ruler before the first line so you can't really just butt it up if you need real precision.)


Anyways, whats the best place to start.

 

[ggunn]

Whats the best means of learning serious intonation? I can do a "half assed save myself $25" job, and it is suitable for the most part. But I want to do a a job that the rock gods would be proud of.

Example. My '52 RI tele. I have the compensated 3 piece bridge. So I have to move the second piece back by two 22 thousands-th of an inch after I get the first piece in place. Like I have a ruler for that. lol

But then I got an LP so I will be moving things by one thousandth of an inch (from what I have read), so I need some precision stuff for that.


I have a Peterson VS1, so all things considered, I have a decent tuning setup IMO. Not the real deal, but close.

I see this thing
http://www.stewmac.com/shop/Tools/Measuring_tools/String_Action_Gauge.html

But I don't know how much that is going to help if I can't get the initial bridge piece to its exact spot since a normal ruler would be needed, and that isn't always dead on...what with their thick mofo lines and extended end pieces. (I am sure someone has a ruler like that...there is a 10th of an inch extra ruler before the first line so you can't really just butt it up if you need real precision.)


Anyways, whats the best place to start.

I don't know anyone who tries to put bridge pieces where they go for intonation by measuring. Get them close by ear, chiming the first harmonic and comparing with a fretted octave, and then use a tuner to tweak it in. The better the tuner, the better the adjustment will be.

That tool looks handy, but the measurements it does are not what I understood you to be trying to do.

 

[Outlaws]

I don't know anyone who tries to put bridge pieces where they go for intonation by measuring. Get them close by ear, chiming the first harmonic and comparing with a fretted octave, and then use a tuner to tweak it in. The better the tuner, the better the adjustment will be.

That tool looks handy, but the measurements it does are not what I understood you to be trying to do.

Ya, its called the scale. You measure from the nut to the 12th fret, then double that. My tele has a 25.5" scale. So that is where my first saddle pieces goes. You can intonate a little afterwards by ear or what with the tuner, but there is still a general system for it. Then (for my 3 piece saddle) I add the high e and the B together for the distance to move the middle saddle back. So .009 + .011 = .02


But I still would like info on all the proper professional tools for making everything (truss rod, string hight, etc) perfect.

 

[jimistone]

Ya, its called the scale. You measure from the nut to the 12th fret, then double that. My tele has a 25.5" scale. So that is where my first saddle pieces goes. You can intonate a little afterwards by ear or what with the tuner, but there is still a general system for it. Then (for my 3 piece saddle) I add the high e and the B together for the distance to move the middle saddle back. So .009 + .011 = .02


But I still would like info on all the proper professional tools for making everything (truss rod, string hight, etc) perfect.

Truss rod adjustment- all you need is the proper sized allen wrench
String height- is a matter of personal preference.
As far as intonation goes-
All you have to do is press the string down at the 12th fret and pluck it...then move your bridge saddle foward or backwards, depending on whether its sharp or flat. On a LP, a tuner and a small flathead screwdriver is all I have ever used. Its not that hard to zero it in.

 

[Outlaws]

All you have to do is press the string down at the 12th fret and pluck it...then move your bridge saddle foward or backwards, depending on whether its sharp or flat. On a LP, a tuner and a small flathead screwdriver is all I have ever used. Its not that hard to zero it in.

Thats what I have been doing, but pressing the string is a variable and there isn't a means of nailing the correct pressure each time consistantly. Maybe I jsut suck, but damn it more of a pain in the ass than anything else.

My minor bar chords just always seem like they're off a bit.

 

[Outlaws]

Truss rod adjustment- all you need is the proper sized allen wrench
String height- is a matter of personal preference.

Ya, I have turned it, but I never seem like it has a sense of why it did what it did. Like shooting into the dark. I just want something to explain how exactly its fixing things.

My neck is good IMO, and I set it up myself, but I just was hoping for a reason why its good.

String height is just one of those thing I thought would be cool to actually know rather than just by feel.

 

[jimistone]

Its a pain in the ass I agree, because each time you make an adjustment, you have to loosen the string a tad, move the saddle, then bring it back to pitch, press it down at the 12th fret and check it again. But, you can make several turns of the saddle screw..if it way out on intonation.

Before to do the intonation, you should decide what gauge strings you want to use and put them on, stretch them out, and adjust the truss rod and saddle height...because, if you intonate before doing all that, you will have to intonate again when you are through.

Thats mainly it on a set neck guitar like a LP. On a fender, like a strat, you have to set the pitch of the neck also...I have never attempted that, because I don't know how to do it properly, I leave that to a pro.
Everything else I do myself

 

[Outlaws]

Well, the Fender site gave a basic run down on intonating the saddle and they said to use the measuring that I mentioned. I figure its the distance of the saddle to the 12 fret that is causing my minor problems with bar chords. Because over the course of the full range that the saddle can be adjusted, there are multiple spot where it will register as having correct intonation, but then when you go to play certain things don't work right with each other.

Seems logical to me anyways.

 

[e_rock]

If the harmonic and the fretted 12th fret note are at the same pitch and you are still having intonation problems, you may have other problems. Your frets may need dressing, the nut could be slightly off. Lots of factors. Is this a well played guitar? I just had my strat refretted and the intonation is amazing now.

 

[Outlaws]

If the harmonic and the fretted 12th fret note are at the same pitch and you are still having intonation problems, you may have other problems. Your frets may need dressing, the nut could be slightly off. Lots of factors. Is this a well played guitar? I just had my strat refretted and the intonation is amazing now.

Not really. Its a 2001 that I bought new.

 

[ggunn]

Thats what I have been doing, but pressing the string is a variable and there isn't a means of nailing the correct pressure each time consistantly. Maybe I jsut suck, but damn it more of a pain in the ass than anything else.

My minor bar chords just always seem like they're off a bit.

If you are squeezing notes sharp while fretting them (and the G string, which is the minor 3rd in a minor barre chord, is usually the worst, especially if it is not a wound string, and hence where you will hear it the most), then it really doesn't matter if your intonation is a little off; it's not the larger variable. If that is happening to you, then maybe you should consider going to heavier gauge strings.

The down side of all this is that because of the way that the western 12 tone scale is tempered, a guitar will never sound completely rock solid on every chord. You know how you can tune by ear so that an E chord sounds absolutely solid while a D chord sucks? Then you putz around with it and get the D chord sounding all full and lush, but now the E chord is wonky? You can't have it both ways; with correct intonation and tuning, a guitar is just a little, but equally, out of tune everywhere.

You know how the metal heads all play a lot of open 5th's? That's because the effects of tempering are least on a 5th (well, other than on octaves, which are not tempered at all). When you play with a lot of distortion, the beat frequencies generated by out-of-tuneness play hell with the sound of a guitar, and the 3rd, especially a minor 3rd, is tempered a lot more, so it's a little out of tune no matter what.

Welcome to the mysteries of the tempered scale. ;^)

 

[snipeguy]

Well put ggun. Years ago I was having those very same chording problems until I changed to heavier strings and had my guitar refretted. Problen fixed. Almost. I still have to watch my own finger pressure, and like you said, especiially on the G string. If I play with a nice smooth grip and finger pressure, no problem. If I squeeze it too much, Yikes! I do my own truss rod and intonation most of the time. For intonation I like using an analog tuner as I can see the slightest changes better. For the truss rod I just sight down the neck (with strings up to pitch) and keep tweeking (with strings loosen off) until I have just enough relief and the action feels good.

 

[Outlaws]

My open E and D chords are actually really good sounding most of the time. Its when you get the Bar chords up around the 9th fret and higher that my intonation goes to shit. Like can get horrible to the point of saying fuck this - no chords up there. But that isn't a valid option IMO. I wanna play those chords.

Even power chords at or around the 12th fret and up get screwed beyond being useable.

 

[goldtopchas]

OK...First of all, I would definitely lose the 3 saddle bridge. Yeah, it's authentic looking, but they stink for intonation. You can't set the "D" and "G" at the same point and expect them both to intonate well.
It helps to use heavier strings too. Strats' and Teles' just seem to like 10's instead of 9's. If you must , you can even meet halfway and use 9.5's .
Do you change your strings often enough?... Old strings sound like ass no matter how you adjust intonation.
Truss rod adjustment and string height are really personal preference. I've played a few guitars that professional luthiers set up to "factory" spec.s'... ( Fenders and Gibsons) and they didn't really play all that great.
Trust me...Put a 6 saddle bridge on that bad boy, a fresh set of good quality 10's and set the intonation at the 12th fret(just try to use average pressure)
and you'll be set!!!! And if it really freaks you out.. you could get the Buzz Feiten tuning system installed on it( a compensated nut, and special tuner that uses slightly off center pitches) They claim to offer perfect intonation anywhere on the fretboard. GOOD LUCK!!!!!

 

[captain fuzz]

ya

in theory, measuring it by scale length then adjusting all the other strings according to guage is correct.

but in reality, those strings are always gonna be a different size guage, its impossible for them to be dead on...

same with the scale length of the guitar, do you think every neck is exactly the same down to a thou? every bridge is placed perfectly, and heck, is even perfectly perpendicular with the strings??!!

NO!!!! this is the beauty in engineering us engineers call "tolerancing"

everything has a tolerance, because it can't be made exact always.

therefore ya, a precise tuner and a sharp ear will produce the best intonated guitar, plus i do believe, as a guitarist, everyone has an idea of what an intonated guitar sounds like, since we all fret with different pressures and may bend the notes a slight bit.

I know because i am crazy, i can tune her up exact, and it still sounds off, i always intonate my G string a weeeee bit lower than the rest... then everything is good!

 

[snipeguy]

My open E and D chords are actually really good sounding most of the time. Its when you get the Bar chords up around the 9th fret and higher that my intonation goes to shit. Like can get horrible to the point of saying fuck this - no chords up there. But that isn't a valid option IMO. I wanna play those chords.

Even power chords at or around the 12th fret and up get screwed beyond being useable.

This is sure sounds like the intonation needs tweeking. Try the tuner/ear method and when you press down at the 12th fret, try to make it with even pressure that approximates your own. I also do what captain fuzz does and set my G just a tad low. Mybe half a tad. Also let the string ring as the intitial attack is always a bit sharp.

 

[AlfredB]

This is sure sounds like the intonation needs tweeking. Try the tuner/ear method and when you press down at the 12th fret, try to make it with even pressure that approximates your own. I also do what captain fuzz does and set my G just a tad low. Mybe half a tad. Also let the string ring as the intitial attack is always a bit sharp.

a word of caution...

many people commit the mistake to tweak the intonation with the guitar lying on the table.

DO ALL YOUR GUITAR ADJUSTS IN PLAYING POSITION !!!!

(i know its a p.i.t.a., but you want to optimize your axe for the way you use it ... and not for lying flat on a table )

 

[boingoman]

OK...First of all, I would definitely lose the 3 saddle bridge. Yeah, it's authentic looking, but they stink for intonation. You can't set the "D" and "G" at the same point and expect them both to intonate well.!!!!!

You can buy a set of tele saddles in the original style which are angled. It definitely helps. Danny Gatton just bent his with a hammer.

I think the 3 piece bridge sounds more like a tele. It's not just a look.

 

[ggunn]

a word of caution...

many people commit the mistake to tweak the intonation with the guitar lying on the table.

DO ALL YOUR GUITAR ADJUSTS IN PLAYING POSITION !!!!

(i know its a p.i.t.a., but you want to optimize your axe for the way you use it ... and not for lying flat on a table )

Hmmmm. Methinks that if the components of your guitar are flopping around so much that it makes a noticable diff to your intonation whether it is face up or edge up (or hanging by the tailpiece, for that matter) then you have other probs.

 

[freshmattyp]

I have a 62 RI Tele. I installed these saddles from Stew Mac and it made all the difference in the world.

http://www.stewmac.com/shop/Bridges...justable_Compensated_Vintage_Tele_Bridge.html

I also installed locking Grovers instead of the historically accurate but extra crappy Kluson knockoffs.