Help Settle a Dispute - Compression w/DAW

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Perceval

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Not sure where I should post this so I figured here was the best place to start. I have two RNC compressors and I am trying to figure out the best way to use them with my system.

I currently have a Spirit FX16, a motu 2408mkII, some decent mics and a PC capable of multitracking (Vegas 2.0). Should I use the inserts on the mixer or use the compressors direct to the motu? Any ideas?
 
Will you be using the compressors for recording(for control) or during mixdown???

but either way....... I'd say stick with channel instets

and U should look into gettin some nice plugins for Vegas, opposed to using the RNC's for mixdown, be a lot easier.

Sabith
 
For control purposes - Vegas has compression built into it. I have read that computer based recording can be improved with a little compression prior to the signal being converted to to digital.
 
I seriously doubt a plug-in will outperform the RNC.... I would stick with the inserts.......

Bruce Valeriani
Blue Bear Sound
 
Bruce buddy...

You really need to try either the L1 Ultramaximizer, or the C1 compressor, or the RCL compressor from Waves.

You would not make such comments after that....:)
Trust me on this one buddy.

Ed
 
Actually Ed, I'm sure you're right.... I must have a repressed dislike for computer-based recording that forces me to reject plug-in features out-of-hand (and shooting my damn mouth off in the process)... I guess it just shows that I'm an outboard gear slut at heart - something about seeing all that sheet metal shining prettily in the racks, as opposed to the dull glow of the plug-in textname in a menu bar!!! ;)

I'll defer to your experience on this one, enlightened sonusman....

:D

Bruce
 
But.....

No plug in can even suck the, uhhhhhhhhh, nevermind the noun here, of a Crainsong SD-8!!! :) The Manley stuff is pretty nice sounding too!

Ed
 
Sonusman

Thanks for the pointers on the Wave plugins. Hell, the day I can afford Manely products is the day I move from Thunderbird and spam to fine french wines and caviar.

Seriously, I just completed my first recording project on a DAW and I have found it difficult to get a good level on the snare. You know how drummers are, consistancy can frequently be lacking so the signal is either too low or peaking. Does it make any sense to insert a compressor on the snare signal before it is converted to digital or is that a crack smokin idea?
 
No compression in the normal sense....

I always use a SM-57 through a ART MP for the snare. The trick is to run the ART really hot on the input. I will actually have it peaking a bit on a lot of hits. The peak light on the ART doesn't equate to distortion, it just means you are getting there, if you know what I mean.

The somewhat distorted signal helps assure a very strong signal to tape (or hard drive, or whatever you are using....was cylinder maybe?....:)) As long as you don't hear disortion, it really didn't happen, so don't be afraid to overdrive the input stage of a ART preamp.

I have found this to work exceptionally well for recording drums. Toms, kick, snare. Same preamp, same almost clipping.

Ed
 
I do all my recording on a DAW with lots of plugs but I am an old dinosaur (et tu Bruce?)who feels that dedicated outboard gear still outperforms MOST of the software out there.
Interface is certainly another plus to the rack stuff.Its just plain easier to twiddle knobs during a mixing session than trying to use a mouse to move virtual knobs (on the fly,with digital lag before you hear the results).Midi machine control through a control box is probably coming for all those software features,but not just yet...
Lots of guys with DAWs do as you suggest,Percival,compressing the live signal through the insert jacks.And because we all grew up listening to tube-buffered mike pres,lots of guys will "warm up" the pristine digital signal before sending it to the computer.
regards
Tom
 
Sonusman

Are you talking about the ART Tube MP
127 Personal Preamp Processor - about $100?
 
Yes and no...

I actually use the Dual MP's. But on The Heavy Brothers CD, we used a couple of the single units too. I didn't find them to sound any different at all. They are not as easy to work with, mainly that you have to have a place to set them down, instead of having them in a rack like you can with the Dual MP. Also, there is no wall wart with the Dual MP.

Believe it or not, the Dual MP cost more then two of the singles units would.....:( But for the racking convience, and not having to deal with wall warts, it was worth the extra $20 or whatever the price difference was.

The difference in analog and digital dynamic processing can be dramatic, or can be slight. Some of the compressors I named above are in league with very high end analog processing in how it effects the sound. Many who have never had the benefit of using high end analog processors would never know it though. Lower end dynamic processors tend to color the sound a lot more then the high end units do. If your experience is with the lower end processors, you will find the digital processors to be a little more sterile sounding, and not provide much color. But compared to their high end analog brothers, it is a very similiar sound. The Crainsong unit I mentioned above is mostly invisible sounding at up to 12-15db of gain reduction!!! Try doing that much gain reduction on a vocal or a snare drum with a RNC and hear the colored sound! The Crainsong will not impart very much noticable color at those gain reduction rates, and many of those plug in compressors won't either. If you really wanna hear how invisible a Crainsong is, go to my mp3 page and download The Heavy Brothers songs (except business as usual, which used a Behringer Composer on the lead vocal, and don't knock the Composer, they sold for $800 when they first came out, and are an exact rip off of a Drawmer compressor that cost $1000!). You can definately hear a little of the compressors color with the Composer, where as with the Crainsong, I assure you that the only thing it did to the sound is fix the volume descrepencies. We couldn't believe it when we used it. It didn't "sound" like a compressor, and we thought it was in bypass mode, but I tell ya, the meters on the console were telling a whole other story. Rather then the vocal jumping up and down, that puppy stayed put! Probably the most incredible compressor I have ever used.

I use the L1 Ultramaximizer for mastering. I can usually get up to around 9 or 10 db of gain reduction ON A MIX before you hear the distortion. That is incredible! You cannot hear ANY color in the sound.

So, the moral is, don't confuse compression color with how good the compressor actually is. Many of us don't really want to "hear" the compressor. When I want to hear a bunch of color from a compressor, I use the good ol' Alesis 3630......;)

Ed
 
Well Now

I haven't myself used the Crainsong but have heard oh so many people who've atested to that much (or should I say that little?) transparency as somusman has.

On the plug-in front, I've not a cluse what going-on in that realm. I'd take sonusman's advice on this any day too.

I myself can atest to the great transparency out of the RNC. Other than the Buzz Audio SOC1.1, I don't think anything comes close in transparency under $1kUS new; and that's quite a price jump.

However, what just moved out of the under $1kUS range is the DaviSound TB-3. If you care to read my current "review" w/mp3 reference I sent to DaviSound on it, read below:

I don't know if you want to read all this before or after you hear the MP3 but...

This is a live recording I did for a CSUS Senior Recital for a Masters of Vocal Performance, recorded in the large recital hall at CSUS. The entire performance was of a grand piano and single female vocal, both un-amplified:



The MP3 is a 2.5 meg file so it's not that bad to download. I'm on a 56k modem at home too, you know, so I understand the frustration!

Set-up:

I used a matched-pair of Neumann TLM103s in ORTF position and set approximately 16 feet from and 6 feet above the stage.

I connected the 103s to a DaviSound TB-3 using 25 foot Belden 8412 cables with Neutrik connectors.

On the TB-3, I set the Mics (pres) to approx. 12 O'clock, Tube In, Drives to approx. 9 O'clock, Comps between 7 and 8 O'clock, Recovers to approx. 9 O'clock, Releases between 10 and 11 O'clock, and Distortion between 9 and 10.

I connected the TB-3 to an HHB 850 using 3 foot Canare L-4E6S cables with Neutrik connectors.

Lastly, I set the 850 to accept -8dBu on its balanced inputs using the Input Selector and set the Rec Level to just a "crack" above 4.

What I would have done differently:

During the quick "sound-check", I noticed they were only using the middle of the stage; about a 40-60 degree width from where the microphones were. It was way too late to fix the problem, but if I had time, I probably would have repositioned the mics to 40 cm. apart with 100 degrees away from each other; oh well.

I've been putting-off buying that really nice stereo-bar from AEA (Audio Engineering Associates) because it's a bit pricey, but it's sure worth it. I'll be getting one real soon now, though. Then again, it only has +/- 30, 45, and 55 degree rotation angles for each mic, but that's still rather useful.

Lastly, I would have set the mics closer to the stage and got more direct-sound and not sooo much audience. Oh, also would have set the Releases a little slower.

Impressions on the DaviSound TB-3 from this first live experience:

During the "sound-check", I noticed the pres had plenty of gain to play-with. Not only that, but I was pretty impressed that I only had to turn the pres up half-way; in regards to the sound source only being an un-amplified grand piano and single vocal.

On the compressor side, along with the tube settings, I must say that I have a feeling that even if you had a really good "feel" for it the studio, live, it's a whole new ball-game! Knowing this, I decided to be rather conservative on this side of things. I've read the manual multiple times so I at least sort of knew how to be on the more "subtle" side with settings.

Going into this first "for real" live experience with the TB-3, I pretty much already knew my opinions on the tube and compressor side of things. I've played with it not nearly enough at home on various sources of music but am already in "ahhh" with its diversity! It can be extremely "transparent", "real", and "musical" when you're looking to only tame the dynamics of that natural piece or when you already have plenty of "color" from elsewhere.

But, oh, don't think for a second that means you have to look elsewhere when you're looking for "color" from a compressor. I've been able to get plenty of "warmth" and even that "bigger than life" sound out of it no matter what the material. Yet somehow, I was still able to keep quite a bit of dynamic range in there when I wanted to.

Remember when you said I'd want another due to its great versatility? Well, I'd like another please. Ha! I think I better hold-off. I think my money would be better-off elsewhere right now, such as eventually spending money working on that 2". It doesn't look like I'll be working on that for another year or two.

I have yet to be able to really listen to the pres. This is where I think I'd like to do some comparisons in the studio. From the little I've heard, I can tell it to be on the very transparent-side. I've liked what I have heard out of them; everything has been very musical and clear, yet never any harshness. But I remind you I haven't heard much through it yet anyhow.

What I am hoping it to pick-up where the Mackie mics left-off. I am one of those who actually doesn't mind the Mackie pres but still find them quite too "sterile"; I want them more "musical". Also, I don't like the "harshness" when you "push" the Mackies; I want them to not mind being pushed and keep their "sound" too. This would be unlike my Soundcraft 200B pres which don't mind being pushed but the sound completely changes when I do; which is not a bad thing like it is with the Mackies.

So, no matter what, I will be using the TB-3 in the studio for some client sessions starting on the 14th but I was hoping to at least do a little playing-around in the studio to compare a Mackie VLZ PRO pre with a DS "Mic-All" pre. We'll see...

Well, I think this is a rather hard situation to draw any kind of conclusions from, but all 'n all, I am rather happy with it's performance.

http://www.neumann.com/
http://www.davisound.com/
http://www.belden.com/
http://www.neutrik.com/
http://www.hhb.co.uk/
http://www.canare.com/
http://www.wesdooley.com/
http://www.mackie.com/
http://www.soundcraft.com/
 
Sounds good Ed,

I love the RNCs, I also sometimes use the RCL comp and the Waves stuff too. I wish I could get my hands (and ears) on some Crane Songs, Summits and a Distressor or two, but for now... I find that there is a time and place for most any type of compressor. The RNC is quite possibly the most consistantly pleasant piece of hardware in my limited compressor rack (comprised mostly of good ole' utilitarian DBX and ART boxes), but it isn't allways what is needed. Sometimes I will use the software.
What I miss with the software is not having the ability to manipulate the hormonic overtone structure that is generated by good sounding analogue processors. Just like Ed, I love slamming a snare through a hot tube to generate some second or third order hormonics that make it jump. I can't find that on the hard drive.....yet.

Peace, Charles
 
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