Help on recording entire band together

[ardy77]

I am debating on how to accomplish this. I need to record an entire band requiring about 14-16 simultaneous inputs...I was considering picking up a new Mackie Onyx 1640 with its 16 inputs and firewire interface...(not to mention it comes with these "legendary" quality preamps already installed) - seems like the all in one solution.

Another part of me wants to by a simple 16-input interface to the computer (which may require me to buy seperate mic preamps).

The problem with the mixer approach is that the signal is cut pre-EQ, pre-Fader, pre-effect send/return - so I really cant take advantage of any features except for the preamps (and the 16 inputs/firewire interface)

Another thing I was wondering about is whether or not I could use the mixer after the music is already on the computer (i.e. - somehow perform mixdown/post-production using the hardware faders on the mixer)....I would love to have this ability but I'm not sure if it is even possible and I know there may be a/d d/a issues....

I am starting to think the mixer is overkill for what I am trying to do...but it provides a majority of the functionality I require...any thoughts?


Thanks

 

[4-Man Takedown]

Well it seems like that mixer may be what you are after, you could indeed mix on the mixer after you recorded it, but would need a way to get the audio from the comp to the mixer. I'm pretty sure the Onyx only can send a stereo mix back to the board itself from the computer through firewire, so you would need a seperate D/A converter. So if you are set on mixing out of the box, something like a motu, rme, etc, with a mixer of your choice would probably be more up your alley, depending on the budget.

If you got a D/A converter(s) for the going from the computer to the mackie you could use it's EQ and inserts while mixing to two track, but you may need a few pairs of hands to ride the faders when neccesary, unless your band is really good. This is part of the reason why I mix in the box, the other being money related.

 

[SouthSIDE Glen]

$400 Firewire?? Swamp land.

I am a dedicated fan of Mackie in general. I absolutely *love* my HR824s, and my 1604VLZ, though about to be retired, has given me fantastic service over the years.

What bugs me about Mackie's marketing of the Onyx series, though, is the heavy price on the Firewire option. Yes, the Firewire interface is *an extra option*, even though they advertise the mixer as being a "firewire mixer". The typical street price of the Firewire card alone for an Onyx mixer is $400. That brings the total price of the 1640 with Firewire to almost double that of a 1604VLZPro. Granted there are other differences between the two, but certainly nowhere near enough to justify a doubling in cost while staying in the analog mixing domain, IMHO.

The returns from the PC on the firewire are for two channel C/R monitoring only. There is no good way through the Firewire to use the mixer for re-mix of your DAW project. And even if you did/could, because the Onyx is an analog mixer, that would require having to run your music through D/A//A/D converters two more times for every remix. That would add a heavy penalty the quality of your sound.

I would recommend going one of two ways:

A) Use the Onyx for input as you describe and do all your mixing by mouse on the DAW (perhaps doing some live submixing on the mixer beforehand, if you wish.)
You could possibly recoup some of the mixer's other functionality by using it as a live mixer or submixer for you band. One band I do live work for just upgraded their mixer from a Soundcraft to a Mackie VLZ Pro and even through the PA setup you can hear the difference in quality; the Mackie sounds much more transparent.

B) If your timing and budget can handle it, or mixing by mouse just doesn't cut it for you, save up a few extra bucks and jump from something like the Onyx to the next stage: a combined input mixer and DAW controller. One of the more attractive ones to me is the new Tascam DM3200, a potential contender to replace my VLZ. With the Firewire interface it doubles as a 32-channel *digital* mixer (vs. the analog Onyx) and as a full-featured 24-channel DAW controller. It would run about twice the cost of a Firewire-equipped 1640, but you'd be getting twice the channels, digital mixing instead of analog, and a full mixing control surface for your DAW. The additional benefit of needing to convert from analog to digital only once in your whole signal chain is an additional important benefit.
You'd be getting much more than twice the machine for twice the price, which makes it a more efficinet investment, plus one that will not obsolete itself as fast ad the hybrid Onyx would.
If, the Tascam is just too far out of your price range, there are other smaller mixer/controller combos available, though you'd have to decide if they have the input flexibility and quality to meed your needs.

 

[ardy77]

Hey thanks alot for the advice! I appreciate it...now that you mention it, something like the Tascam DM3200 would be perfect. A couple questions about it....how are the preamps? Does it come with integrated firewire also?

What competes with the Tascam DM3200?

Thanks again.

 

[SouthSIDE Glen]

Ardy,

All excellent questions. You know how to ask the right ones

I am not intimately familiar with the DM3200, it is a new model for which I have had no hands-on experience yet. I suggested it based solely (so far) upon what I have read about it this far in the catalogs and magazines, my previous experiences with the Tascam brand, and the fact that I myself consider it a current front-runner for purchase myself.

I have not yet read any hands-on reviews of it that discuss its preamps, but I have worked with several recent Tascam productsand been impressed with the quality of their preamps and converters. I even used their small us122 2-channel/USB box last week to record a baby grand piano, running a Rode NT4 coincident pair SDC microphone direct into the 122, and the sound that came out was crystal clear and pure. For a $199 box, I was very impressed with it's sound quality. Assuming the DM-3200 has at least that good of a preamp - if not even better considering it's the 122's big, big, big, big brother ), I wouldn't worry about that aspect of it; they sounded as good if not better than the Mackie XDM pres.

The 3200 is a 32-channel, 16 bus(!) digital mixer with 16 XLR mic/line ins (16 pres just like the Mackie). It comes standard equipped with 24 channels of TDIF I/O, 8 channels of ADAT I/O and two channels of S/PDIFs, along with a host of MIDI and clocking/sync ports. The Firewire is an optional add on, just like on the Onyx; however I included the additional cost of that option in my quoting of the general street price.

There are at this time only a couple of other units that I know of for under $10K that double as input mixers and DAW controllers. The Digidesign Digi 002 comes to mind, but it is a far smaller machine with only 8 motorized faders and 4 mic pres vs. the Tascam's 17 motorized faders and 16 pres. Also the ADAT I/O is optional with the Digi vs. standard for the Tascam. Considering that the Digi is over 2/3rds the cost of the Tascam, on my ledger the Tascam is a far better value. Right now, I see no direct competition for the 3200 for anything less than $10K

I think the Tascam may be to digital mixer/DAW combo units what the Mackie d8b (or even the Yamaha O2R) was to digital mixers a few years ago; the breakthrough machine in it's class as the first/only one to offer it's quality, performance and feature mix at a previously unheard-of price. Another similarity to when the d8b appears to be that the dealers can't keep the Tascams on the shelves right now; the demand is already higher than the rate that Tascam can supply, until Tascam catches up, the chances are good that you will have a couple of weeks of back order if you were to order right now (though check with your dealer, this situation could have easily changed in the couple of weeks since I last make some phone calls.) Not suprising, considering Tascam is offering a machine for a street price of $3298 (Firewire included in that price) that is comparable to - or in many cases surpasses - machines that cost 3 times that much.

Of course, I'll give you even money that at the next NAMM everybody else will have their own answer to the 3200, as I think affordable digital mixer/DAW controllers are the Next Big Thing. But for now I think the Tascam is out in the lead and by the time the competition hits full production Tascam should have at least one bug fix/BIOS upgrade for current 3200s already in the can.

Disclaimer: I am not in any way affiliated with Tascam or any of it's dealers, and have absolutely no vested interest in pitching or shilling for the 3200. It's just that the more I thought about and described the 3200, the more I sold myself as well Likewise, my predictions for the future in the above paragraph are my own educated guesses only; so - As Dave Letterman is so fond of saying - please, no wagering

G.

 

[ardy77]

G, you're certainly making a believer out of me!

I have to say I appreciate the amount of time you spent answering my questions. The information you have provided is invaluable. Sometimes product descriptions just dont cut it...you need info from "the people" (i.e. - how this thing will really benefit me)...

You pointed out the exact solution I was looking for. It seems the Mackie Onyx is geared more for live sessions and "doubles" as a nice recording tool with the firewire option...but now I know what I need. I'll keep you posted if I end up convincing the wife to let me get one of these things...(if not, I'll direct her to this thread...maybe after a couple beers she'll share the same fire I did when I read it)...Haha Thanks again G

Aloha!

 

[SouthSIDE Glen]

Aloha!?!?!

Ardy,

My pleasure giving you my two bits worth.

If your "Aloha" means you are located in the wonderful islands of Hawaii, I might see my way clear of accepting a free round trip ticket from you to come and check out your new setup when you get it.

Just kidding, of course.

Hope I helped you down the correct road. Good luck!

G.