help me spend my money!

[maryslittlesecret]

Howdy, all. After posting our latest tune on the mp3 mixing clinic, I've discovered that my vocal production is in need of a tune up. The consensus is that the vocals are too thin with not enough low-end/body (to listen for yourself, the tune in question is "Relativity" and can be found at: http://www.mp3.com/30SoS).

Anyway, I'm currently using an AKG C3000 for my mic and a dbx 286A for my preamp. For budgetary reasons, I'd rather not replace both, so I'm looking for input on which would be the better item to replace and your suggestions on what I should replace it with.

Am I running a weak mic through a good preamp or is a crappy preamp killing a good mic? Let me know your thoughts on which item is 'the weakest link' (goodbye!) and your suggestions on a mid-level (preferrably not much over $500) solution for my vocal woes (other than a new singer)

Thanks for the input!

J
http://www.30SoS.com

 

[charger]

I've always liked the 30SoS vocal quality. I don't think your vocal style would benefit from a huge thick sound... right now it fits so well in the mix. But if you want to thicken things up, I love the Rode NTK (a nice tube mic). Also, you're going to get a thousand replies suggesting the C1, which is the mic du jour. But I would be hesitant to take the advice of all the other cooks in this kitchen, when what you guys cook up is already so tasty.

Anyway, you know me, the first place I would go for a tune up to your sound would be the drum sounds... I still can't get into that kick sound... the vocals would be far back there in my priorities.

 

[CyanJaguar]

A u87 through any preamp will sound PRO.

According to a reviewer on www.sospubs.co.uk

the tlm103 is a trimmed down version of the u87. He said they sound virtually identical. Only thing is that the tlm103 is cardoid only and does not have bass cut.

I dont think you can go wrong with a TLM 103. It also has great body.

 

[Dolemite]

Well, first off I'd say upgrade the mic first. I just did a quick search of rec.audio.pro and the consensus on the 286 is that its decent. Here's a rather favorable review from a well-known r.a.p member:

ftp://ftp.jagunet.com/pub/users/tfo...essor_Preamps/97.9_dbx_286A_mic_processor.txt

If you like the all-in-one pre/comp/de-esser concept I would definitely start looking for a Symetrix 528 or 528E. There seems to be some issues with the 286 producing low phantom power voltage so you may have to take that into consideration (i.e. - don't buy any power-hungry mics). With that said, how about a mic that doesn't need phantom power at all? Before spending another $200-500 on a LD condenser, I would check out any number of dynamics. You'll need these for live performance anyway so it can't hurt to try them for recording. There are plenty to choose from, but I would start looking here:

Shure SM57/58
Shure beta series
Sennheiser E835/845
AKG D880
Some AT stuff I'm sure
Sennheiser MD431

But if you're looking to spend $500, you could easily come away with two new mics and a better pre.

Condensers:

Marshall MXL-V67 - $170
Studio Projects C1 - $200
AT3035 - $200

Dynamics - all about $80-120

Mic Pres:

M-Audio DMP2 - $150
Symetrix SX202 - $125 used
ART Tube MP - $60 used (some controversy on whether this is good or terrible )
Symetrix 528 - $250-350 used

So, $500 could upgrade your whole vocal chain. Personally, I see no reason to ditch the 286 at this point, unless you have a specific issue with it. A different mic pre would make a much more subtle difference than a new mic, anyway. That said, how about tracking vocals in one of our local studios? $500 would buy plenty of studio time with a very nice signal chain, better acoustics, and somebody to run the show so you can concentrate on your own performance. There are more studios around here believe it or not, but these are the only 2 with websites :

http://www.recordingguy.com
http://www.catamountrecording.com

 

[maryslittlesecret]

Thanks for the input, fellas. You always have more info than I know what to do with...

Charger -- glad you like the sound as is. I caught up with you on my other post at the mixing clinic as well, so swing out there if you haven't already...

Cyan -- I just hit zzounds and checked the u87. I'm not sure where you are in the US or the world, but the exchange rate from Iowa to where you're located must be sweet! That mic's worth more than my studio However, the TLM might work out if I decide to take a big vocal plunge...

And Dole -- damn, man! you are truly a wealth of info. We need to hook up sometime so I can pick your brain for about a half day. Maybe meet at Big Mikes for a sub (I loved that place when I was in college down there). Anyway, thanks for all the ideas. I'm gonna print this mutha out and keep it handy. In terms of tracking in a local studio, where the fun in that? Honestly, I think if I had time to 'concentrate on my performance' the only thing that would come of it would be the realization that I need a real singer... I have thought about hitting a local studio, but if I did, it would be a for a whole project so we could get live drums on there as well (did you hear that, charger?) Are you affiliated with either of these studios (or any other)?

Thanks again for the input. I'll let you know if and when I get a little closer to taking the plunge after I toy with the gear I have on hand...

J
http://www.30SoS.com

 

[Buck62]

For the money, you can't beat the RODE NTK.

For around $400 you'll freak at how killer this mic sounds!

It's like having a Neumann for a fraction of the cost.

 

[charger]

lol! it's only because i listen to these songs repeatedly that i keep commenting on the drum sound!

 

[chessparov]

marysslittlesecret, the C3000 has a "rep" of being harsh sounding on
vocals. You may want to place the mike pointing downward towards
your voice, however, don't sing up towards the mike as it compromises
your vocal "posture". This tends to record a warmer vocal according to
various books I've read. I'm planning to be "MP3" ready in a few months,
sorry that I'm not able to hear your MP3 presently.

P.S. I'm one of the thousand who'd recommend the C1 to you!

 

[maryslittlesecret]

Thanks for the tip, chessparov. I think I'd heard that somewhere before but have yet to try it. I'll give it a spin with the next tune. And about the hallowed C1 -- I have yet to find it on zzounds, musiciansfriend, or anywhere else I've looked. Anyone know where I could check one out online for a decent price? I don't even know who the manufacturer is -- it's always just "c1" (like 'Madonna' or 'Cher' I guess).

Buck -- I could probably fit the NTK into my budget if I decide to dive in, but I have a bit of a tube phobia. How long do the tubes last? Can you replace them yourself? Is the mic fragile or delicate with the tube in it? I'm a rookie in this field so let me know.

And Charger -- lol. As such a big fan, I promise I will toy around with the kick a bit for the next tune and see if we can find something that speaks to you a little more. Otherwise, I'm just gonna have to cruise out to your studio and track our live drummer there... I'll drop you a message a little later about remix stuff...

J
http://www.30SoS.com

 

[chessparov]

Re: C1, Cher, Madona

Cher and Madonna should wish they sound as good as a C1!
Seriously, check out the website www.studioprojectsusa.com
It has some reviews and a list of dealers. Street price runs around
$200 to $220. I bought mine at Jim's Music in Orange County, CA.
Their website is www.jimsmusic.com

P.S. You're probably a better vocalist than you give yourself
credit for. Singers like John Lennon, Roy Orbison, and
Sam Cooke were notoriously hard on their vocals despite
having fine voices!

 

[Dolemite]

Yeah, Big Mike's is the shit!

Anyway, no I don't have any affiliation with these studios (or any studio for that matter), but I guess I've always wondered how it would work to bring a mixed song into a studio to track vocals. I may try it when I finally come up with something worthwhile even though I do like the zero-pressure situation of recording in the safety of my apartment. It seems to me you should be able to get a quality vocal take in an hour, or two at most, and I'd say its probably something that might benefit greatly from the equipment/enviroment. It would be nice to do drums too, definitely, but thats definitely more of a time commitment and therefore more of an expense.

 

[maryslittlesecret]

Thanks for the links, chessparov. Of course, there are no listings for this area and your local store seems to still be building their site, but I'll search the web a bit and see what I can find.

And Dole, glad to know someone's keeping Big Mike's in business for me (though they have a couple up here now which I frequent). I'm still considering doing the full studio treatment one of these days, but I'll probably demo some more tunes with our updated style (loops, samples, keys, etc.) to make sure I'm tracking the best of our stuff. before I invest the time and cash elsewhere...

J
http://www.30SoS.com

 

[Buck62]

I don't know how long the tube in the NTK will last.... I guess it depends on how much use the mic gets.
Tubes, in general, last a pretty long time, though.
I grew up watching "tube" T.V.'s, and those old things lasted forever!

As far as durability goes, I don't think you have anything to worry about.... unless you plan on swinging it all over the place by the cable ...ala Roger Daltrey of The Who.

All I know is that the NTK is one bad~ass killer mic!
When you run it through a tube preamp it gives you that awesome analog-type warmth that's so hard to get on a digital recording.

MAC2 and I will try to post a recording that was done with the NTK on vocals. We'll post the link when it's available.

Buck

 

[Executivos]

I would definitely look into a new mic. Maybe a tube mic...the ntk seems to be a great choice. I wouldn't consider the dynamics mentioned. Maybe some of them but you should be able to do better than most of them with the c3000.

How are you eq-ing the vocals? I usually find I'm better off without any or leaving it very slight. You might try something like that.