Help me appreciate acoutsic guitars

I expected a bit more "If you have to ask, then you probably aren't as good as me and couldn't tell a kay from a hoozeywhatsis".

Call me cynical, but I doubt anyone here is that far past me so as to require a special instrument in order to produce his muse. I doubt there's even much stylistically that would warrant it. One response made a blanket statement that "cheap guitars can't do that". I would have said "It's not easy to find a cheap guitar that does that". I doubt that guy would agree.

The prejudice I brought to the table is that alot of guys will try and convince me that it's a quality/efficiency/playability issue, but it's really that it makes you feel like your peepee's bigger when you play it.
 
cephus said:
Call me cynical, but I doubt anyone here is that far past me so as to require a special instrument in order to produce his muse. .

Not at all. You're damn right. Once it stays in tune and is halfway playable, you'll get something out of it.

I've never heard a decent player sound absolutely shit because of a bad guitar, but plenty of shit players sound shit on good guitars.

The world is what you make it.
 
Cephus,

Actually, I like your attitude.

I'll be the first to admit that you don't have to pay $2500 to get a fine sounding guitar. I'll also admit that I've never heard any appreciable difference between a Martin D-28 and a D-45. The same is true with electrics. People will pay good money to have their Strat professionally relic'd for god's sake.

Part of the appeal of high dollar acoustics is the insurance that the guitar will improve over time.

Sure some of it is snob appeal. But for me it doesn't work that way.

There will be a sound I will hear in my head and when I find a guitar that will make exactly that sound I will pay what it takes if I can. Playing such a guitar lets me quit thinking about stuff and just play. That's how I came to have such an eclectic collection. If the guitar that makes that sound is an asian cheapie so much the better.

There's one last thing. High end instruments hold their value and increase in value over time. They are actually very good investments. They outperform the stock market and you get to play them. What's the downside?
 
cephus said:
I expected a bit more "If you have to ask, then you probably aren't as good as me and couldn't tell a kay from a hoozeywhatsis".

Actually, there's a lot of that around these parts. Guys think the price of the axe makes the musicians...I saw two kids from Bismark yesterday, both with really high dollar Taylors doing a taping for a local TV show. They weren't bad, in fact I complimented them on some of their original work, then suggested books by Luboff, Davis, Brahaney and a few others to help them learn about song structure (their stuff dragged on without form or function quite a bit), and I got their high-falutin' bought-by-daddy Taylors thrown in my face and a couple of 17 year old noses thrown in the air...I've seen it before, when I was on the road; The wannabes with a rich girlfriend always hid behind "better equipment" than I had...

...But really, I don't see a lot of that in this forum...Uh, the mic forum, yeah, LOTS of it, but not here...

Eric
 
OK, I'm at home and settled down with a beer so here goes...

I have a fair experience of dealing with musicians that want high end acoustics and what I describe is just really my observations.
Generally I find you can place them into three distinct categories. They are, I want, I deserve and I need, by that I mean those that just want to have a "nice" guitar and don't pretend to understand any complex issues that that choice may involve.
I deserve" types tend to believe that having a guitar made will somehow improve their playing because thats the main thing holding them back. Finally the "I need" camp are usually pro session guys or working full time musicians that have a very specific set of check boxes and are by far the most common folk to present at my door. Ask them to chop in their favorite high end acoustic for a well made big name mass produced guitar and see the response you get.

So how does that explain the difference between a top end acoustic or a branded instrument or a mass produced instrument from the many excellent ranges available? The answer is really in the detail. The gigging jazzer who wants an archtop built to his spec or the folk singer who is looking for a sound he can't find from the main names knows exactly what they are after.
The finger picker who wants a 12 fret 000 style with a deeper body and wider neck, set up for silk and steel. Where are they going to get it. Answer they commission one. They are not right or wrong but they can do things on the resulting guitar easier than they can on a generic guitar. I know because I see it all the time. The argument then is, is that in the instrument or the perception of the player. You'll be the judge on that one. I have sold a number of commissions on the back of one guitar I made for a session guy, but none of the subsequent commissions has been the same as the first and every one has been well received.

So that deals with my experience of those that want to spend good money and in all cases it hinges on expectation. In some cases justified in other cases not so.

Next What is a high end acoustic? I see two distinct areas here. Branded name guitars and bespoke instruments. Obviously I'm heavily biased towards the latter but I do appreciate the wonderful guitars that the big names make. That doesn't mean I'm not aware of their flaws. Each big name has their good points and they also have many compromises. Its these compromises that most of the criticism aimed at them focus on.

Bespoke instruments from makers such as myself have their drawbacks as well. The most obvious is the leap of faith required to trust your cash on a guitar that will not have the same "immediate" resale value that your Martin or Taylor would have. That doesn't make them worse guitars. I know I'm biased but in most cases, as instruments they are better guitars because they are made for YOU, they just don't have the name to sell it on. Not a grumble, just a statement of fact really.

Right I've dealt with my thoughts on the musicians that crave high end acoustics and the distinction between what I see as the two types of high end acoustic, so what about "why are they "better?"
There are a load of analogies, You drive to work everyday so you go out and buy a reliable saloon car that does 40 mpg and is cheap to service and run. If you have to drive at work you might want to get a van or pickup because that saloon is soon gonna buckle. If you want to race Formula one you wouldn't do it in either but under it all they are all cars. Its horses for courses really. Another analogy, you have a BBQ on Saturday night and you can get your burgers from Macdonalds or your local butcher. I know which I'd go for but they are both burgers (well almost).
Another one your getting married. Try telling her that you have a perfectly good suit in your closet and you really don't need to hire, buy or have a another made. Point is that it is all about what is right for the purpose. If you just do a bit of acoustic playing or your style doesn't warrant the supposed benefits of a high end guitar you are better off sticking with your current choice. Save your money. But if you fit into the group of musicians that play a lot of acoustic guitar and find that there are limitations to your development it's time to explore whether a better instrument will allow you to "pull" more sound out of your style.
Seriously, I've been amazed in the past by the amount of dynamic range that a good player can pull from a guitar. Put a good instrument in their hands and the bar raises again.

I haven't touched on why the materials or setup and design of high end acoustics are better (they are) because I don't see it as relevant to Cephus's original question. The bottom line is high end guitars exist and sell because a high proportion of players recognize the benefits that they can provide and others evolve to a point where they see the difference. That is after you have cut through the brand snobbery, fashion, and marketing crap that surrounds our industry.

Phew what a ramble, flame away now guys don't forget, just my observations YMMV.

When all is said and done a guitar is just a tool, but some are better suited to the task in hand and you gets what you pay for only if you know what you are shopping for.

Sermon over, now back to my beer :D
 
I have this Olympia acoustic (model OD5, I believe) made by Tacoma. I spent a whole day trying guitar out at my local shop. Probably went through about 50 guitars, with prices up to $1000. This $220 guitar blew them all out of the water. What I learned: acoustics were even less consistent (among the same models) than electrics. There were two of these Olympia guitars and one of them sounded like crap.

On the one I bought, the action and feel were perfect and the sound was phenomenal. That was all I was looking for. I have no idea what the expensive guitars have that this one didn't. Maybe more consistency?

I think the value with acoustic guitars is the same with electric. I haven't played an electric that sounds like it's worth more than $800. Anything above that is brand name pricing and fancy looks, as far as I'm concerned.
 
Nice one, Muttley. That was one of the best posts I've seen on this forum.

As a matter of interest, what mass-produced guitar would you buy for yourself? I mean, if you absolutely had to choose...
 
32-20-Blues said:
Nice one, Muttley. That was one of the best posts I've seen on this forum.

As a matter of interest, what mass-produced guitar would you buy for yourself? I mean, if you absolutely had to choose...
The first thing I'd do is ignore the name on the headstock. The next thing I'd do is get someone else to play it so I can hear it out front. The next thing I'd do is ask myself what I'm going to be using it for. If I wanted a flatpicker I'd look at different guitars than if I wanted a fingerpicker.

If I absolutely had to choose a "Desert Island guitar", you know if I was washed up on the shore with one guitar for life............ Boy thats impossible to answer.

Can I have a Bill Moll Archtop and a Lowden or maybe a Benedetto and a Martin 00. Wait do Mario Proulx guitars count as mass produced?? Not really!! I really can't answer that one sorry..OK a Lowden but only if England beat you guys in the Cricket World Cup tomorrow. :D

Sod it, I'll just have one of mine and bitch when I can't play it right.





















Mass produced, decent tone, well made, well designed, good materials, versatile = Lowden.
 
IronFlippy said:
I have this Olympia acoustic (model OD5, I believe) made by Tacoma. I spent a whole day trying guitar out at my local shop. Probably went through about 50 guitars, with prices up to $1000. This $220 guitar blew them all out of the water. What I learned: acoustics were even less consistent (among the same models) than electrics. There were two of these Olympia guitars and one of them sounded like crap.

On the one I bought, the action and feel were perfect and the sound was phenomenal. That was all I was looking for. I have no idea what the expensive guitars have that this one didn't. Maybe more consistency?

I think the value with acoustic guitars is the same with electric. I haven't played an electric that sounds like it's worth more than $800. Anything above that is brand name pricing and fancy looks, as far as I'm concerned.
Thats my point exactly, You have made a very well informed decision on what your needs are right now. I hope you have many happy years of music from the guitar you bought. It was right for you. You may or may not arrive at a point somewhere down the line where your ear and style move to a point where you want something different. Who knows!! But what you have now is perfect thats good enough for me.

The reason acoustics are less consistent across the range and also within specific models is that materials and timber as well as voicing are king and you just don't get that from factory produced instruments. God is in the detail
 
muttley600 said:
If I absolutely had to choose a "Desert Island guitar", you know if I was washed up on the shore with one guitar for life............ Boy thats impossible to answer.

Can I have a Bill Moll Archtop and a Lowden or maybe a Benedetto and a Martin 00. Wait do Mario Proulx guitars count as mass produced?? Not really!! I really can't answer that one sorry..OK a Lowden but only if England beat you guys in the Cricket World Cup tomorrow. :D

Lowden then? Cool. I've played a couple, and I see where you're coming from. Plus, they're Irish, so... :D

One day I hope to own something bespoke...It sounds like a whole other world. Then again, I can get by with what I have at the moment, so it'll wait.

Oh, and the cricket tomorrow....yeah, we'll lose. You guys can call it payback for the rugby. ;)
 
32-20-Blues said:
Lowden then? Cool. I've played a couple, and I see where you're coming from. Plus, they're Irish, so... :D

One day I hope to own something bespoke...It sounds like a whole other world. Then again, I can get by with what I have at the moment, so it'll wait.

Oh, and the cricket tomorrow....yeah, we'll lose. You guys can call it payback for the rugby. ;)
Don't start me on the rugby, I passed on two tickets because I was too busy to make the flight. You guys have a real special team right now, especially the backs. World class and fantastic to watch. After five years they have finally come together.
 
for some reason, i love the old Yamaha guitars. one of the best tones i ever heard in my life was a guy with a early 70's Yamaha acoustic (don't remember the exact model, it was a FG though), it sounded amazing. tons of character, so far from that sterile "Taylor" sound. it just filled the room with sound, without being really "loud". in terms of tone, it wiped the floor with my buddy's Taylor, and probably about 1/8th the cost. now my '82 Yamaha doesn't come anything close to that, but for the price, i dig it. i'm always on the lookout for old yamahas on Craigslist in hopes that i can find one with the tone i'm after...

Seagulls are nice also for pretty cheap. i played a Seagul 12 string that blew me away, and one of my first guitar friends had a Seagull that sounded quite nice for only like $250. of the more expensive guitars, i guess i prefer the sound of Gibson or sometimes Martin...

then again i'm pretty retarded when it comes to acoustic, so what i might consider to be "good tone" probably sounds like shit to anyone who knows better, haha...
 
zed32 said:
then again i'm pretty retarded when it comes to acoustic, so what i might consider to be "good tone" probably sounds like shit to anyone who knows better, haha...

Tone is all in the ear of the beholder. Plus, every audience I've ever played to has been tone deaf on every level, so it's all good.
 
zed32 said:
for some reason, i love the old Yamaha guitars. one of the best tones i ever heard in my life was a guy with a early 70's Yamaha acoustic (don't remember the exact model, it was a FG though), it sounded amazing. tons of character, so far from that sterile "Taylor" sound. .

I have a red label FG-150.

You ain't lying.
 
ez_willis said:
I have a red label FG-150.

You ain't lying.


yeah dude, the one he had was a red label FG also! i just forget the number. those things are gorgeous sounding, even though his was a little beat-up in appearance. i have a FG-345II, not as cool sounding, but better than any of the new shit i tried at GC for the same price.
 
I think everybody should bang on $150 guits, record only with Behringer gear, ride bicycles (or skateboards) for transportation, wear clothes from walmart, live in either grass or mud huts, and drink lots of cheap-ass beer. Be enlightened: if you keep your belly full of cheap-ass beer none of the other shit matters anyway.

Now I think I'll go pawn off my high-end guits, get a cheap banger guit, and invest the remaining money in a truckload of Brown Derby--if they still make it...I hope...I hope.

I'm going to need a really big, strong and secure hut for the beer, though--much better than your average hut. Is that allowed? :D
 
zed32 said:
yeah dude, the one he had was a red label FG also! i just forget the number. those things are gorgeous sounding, even though his was a little beat-up in appearance. i have a FG-345II, not as cool sounding, but better than any of the new shit i tried at GC for the same price.

Mine has a Converse sticker on it, too. Which makes it custom, or something. :p
 
Yeah, it's about the sound, and it's about the feel, but it's also about the smell, and the taste, and the look, and something more.

It's about the way the notes come to life, and the wood connects with your body. It is about the way the neck molds to your hand.

You play a great guitar, and it has this sound that just isn't there with other guitars.

I have a customer with a 1934 Martin D-28 (the first year they ever made them - one of the most sought after guitars in the world) Right now it is probably worth $100,000 (in fact, I know for a fact he has been offered that much for it - IN CASH). He'll never sell it, as it was the guitar his father supported the family with for years, but the value is unquestionable. It is also one of the two or three best sounding guitars I've ever played. You strum a chord, and there is a presence that you just don't hear with other guitars. It can make you weep with just a chord or two - it has Power.

I have a friend who has a 1930's Gibson Jumbo. Norman Blake offered him $15,000 for that guitar ten years ago, but these days it is probably worth closer to $45,000. It is the single loudest guitar you have ever heard in your life. It's a bloody cannon. And it sounds good, too. It has this dryness that all old guitars have which is just incredible. Strum it once, and it makes you just want to play for hours. It makes you feel strong, and proud, and it too has Power.

A few years back, an old customer of dad's was getting married, and he asked dad to make a guitar for his fiancée (she didn't play, and for that matter he couldn't play since his motorcycle accident - but then she couldn't play the $100,000 Steinway he bought her either). Highly figured maple sides with a three piece maple/Brazilian rosewood/maple back, and a really exceptional master grade German Spruce top. It was a roughly OOO sized guitar, with twelve frets clear of the body, a slotted peghead, and a pyramid bridge. But that's all just specs. The real thing was the sound. I like all of dad's guitars, but this one was just special. It had overtones to it that you don't normally hear. You would play a chord, and it would have this depth to it, like there were some really cool and unusual tensions going on, even when you were just playing a triad. And they weren't like a ninth and an eleventh or anything. They were something cosmic, something like what you would hope God's voice sounded like. They could bring you to your knees and make you shout with joy. And then you would play a more complex sounding chord, and it was just ... oh man, I can't even tell you how amazing that thing was. That guitar had Power as well.

And of course, these were just my experiences. Other people have these experiences with other guitars. But if you want to bring it down to something more quantifiable, here you go: up to a certain point, you get what you pay for. There is a very clear rate of diminishing returns once you get past about $1000, but it takes a while before you aren't really getting any improvement. And of course, once you get into the real master built guitars from highly experience individual luthiers, once you get past their base price instruments a large part of what you get is purely cosmetic. But in terms of sound, what you get from a better guitar is greater depth and complexity of the sound, a MUCH larger dynamic range, more sensitivity to touch, and a more pleasant balance.

Go to a great acoustic music store, and play a bunch of really nice guitars. If you still don't get it, you never will, and I feel sorry for you. When you find the right one, it needs no explanation.


Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi
 
mrface2112 said:
that was the D-100 and it was more like $150,000 (or was that $250,000?).

and yeah, given that it was more Mother of Toiletseat than wood, i'd expect it to sound pretty bad. to be honest, i don't think that's a very good comparison--it wasn't intended to be a great sounding guitar--it was intended to be a showpiece for the inlay department.


cheers,
wade


It wasn't Mother of Toilet Seat, it was real pearl, and it was nothing compared to the 1,000,000th Martin it was copied off of. THAT one was all hand cut by Larry Robinson. It took him eighteen months to finish it (and that pissed me all to hell, `cause I couldn't get him to do much work for ME!), and it is a thing of wonder to behold. Doesn't sound like much, but then it was never really meant to be a player - these days it hangs in a case at the Martin Museum, but back when they were touring the country with it they would let anybody play it. "Hey, this is our 1,000,000th guitar. It's absolutely priceless and irreplaceable. Wanna try it?"

The D-100 listed at $100,000, but most of them probably sold at about $60,000 or so.

As for a $15,000 guitar, that is the base price (last I checked) for ANY Martin with Brazilian rosewood, which is kind of their way of saying "we don't want to do this." Of course, all that really means is they can't make enough of them. Go figure.


Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi
 
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