Help making bass guitar not seem "flat"

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Seafroggys

Seafroggys

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Okay so I showed a couple of people an early mix of a WIP on my album project. The first one said the bass guitar sounded like Midi, and the second said it sounded flat (not flat as in pitch, but in tone).

I went back to the mix and realized that long long ago, when I first recorded the bass part, I set the compressor to 16:1 (eck, that could kill everything). So I rolled it back to 9:1, raised the attack a little, took out some 400 and boosted a bit of 1k.

This is DI btw, hence the reason for the high compression ratio. So here's the updated mix, but I'd like to see if there's anything else I could do, aside from the obvious re-tracking. I also have a reamper available if you think amping it up may be a good idea, but my best amp at the moment is a 130 watt Peavey TNT combo unit.

http://soundclick.com/share?songid=7311751
 
4:1 would be "killing" it also. 9:1 might as well be a hard limiter. Try 2:1. *Maybe* 3:1 if you're really out of control.

The biggest problem with most bassists I see is strings... Nothing sounds like fresh strings - Put a couple hours of playing time on fresh strings and they won't sound so fresh anymore no matter what you do with them. Adding a mic'd up amp wouldn't be out of the question either.
 
I love a bit of warmth/slight overdrive on the bass, just seems creamier and would probably solve your flat tone problem.
 
On my most recent project, I ran a Warwick Corevette and a Fender Jazz through a Great River and it sounded NICE! Big, powerful. A little eg and compression and it'll be rockin' for sure.
 
I'd say you have a good working tone style going for you there. Nice split between consistent level and note dynamic not being spoiled which is easily a downside for bass compression, plus the articulation and overtones that help bass speak' on any (read even little) size speaker. (On li'll plastics' BTW

One side trip -on groove'. It's interesting that while it feels like you're flying with easy through the faster jammin' sections, the head (intro) line feels out' -like it needs to roll' (flow?) better? (Words..meanings. eck. :D
 
Massive Master said:
4:1 would be "killing" it also. 9:1 might as well be a hard limiter. Try 2:1. *Maybe* 3:1 if you're really out of control.

The biggest problem with most bassists I see is strings... Nothing sounds like fresh strings - Put a couple hours of playing time on fresh strings and they won't sound so fresh anymore no matter what you do with them. Adding a mic'd up amp wouldn't be out of the question either.
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Normally I'd agree with you. I love me dynamics (comes from my classical background). If I throw a compressor on something, its usually 2:1, maybe 3:1. However, I have found with DI bass (and under different bassists) that the transients and volume consistency is freaking insane, so while an amped bass I may only wind up doing 2 or 3:1, with my DI I've found I have had to go past 8:1 to get similar results. I can try dropping the ratio and the threshold, so if that affects anything.

I love a bit of warmth/slight overdrive on the bass, just seems creamier and would probably solve your flat tone problem.
Click to expand...

Good thought, although I'm going for a cleaner, punchier sound (huge Paul McCartney tone fan), so that may not be what I want...but we'll see, I have a few decent overdrive plugs.

On my most recent project, I ran a Warwick Corevette and a Fender Jazz through a Great River and it sounded NICE! Big, powerful. A little eg and compression and it'll be rockin' for sure.
Click to expand...

Yeah, this is a Jazz as well, though I am using Flatwound strings that *are* rather old (5 months or so when I recorded this, although I don't play bass often). My DI is not the greatest, its the instrument input on my Firestudio, but it gets the job done. I plan on getting a few new pieces of gear when I work on my next album, one of them is going to be an RNP, so we'll see if there is improvement there.

I'd say you have a good working tone style going for you there. Nice split between consistent level and note dynamic not being spoiled which is easily a downside for bass compression, plus the articulation and overtones that help bass speak' on any (read even little) size speaker. (On li'll plastics' BTW

One side trip -on groove'. It's interesting that while it feels like you're flying with easy through the faster jammin' sections, the head (intro) line feels out' -like it needs to roll' (flow?) better?
Click to expand...

Heh thanks, at least you enjoy the tone. Its amazing how different the bass sounds when I go from my RP-6 monitors to my $20 cans on this computer. I do think its better than it was before.

Heh, the intro is a bitch for me. I'm not a bass player by trade (actually primarily a drummer, yes that's also me on organ and drums as well) and its easy to play to the drums, but when its just to a click, its rather hard. It doesn't flow as well as I'd like....I may end up re-recording the intro, since the rest of it is good.

Anyway thanks for your ideas!
 
flatfinger said:
here is a different approach to evening things out without grabbing a compressor first ; may or mat not apply to your situation , but it is an interesting little read.
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Thanks for posting that. There's actually few good bits of the puzzle to put in the too box there; his initial 1st/2nd eq leveling technique, instruments' natural static resonances vs song key, dynamics control vs eq..
 
In my experience, flatwounds tend to be dead sounding. Old flatwounds would have to completely suck.

That is probably contributing to your dynamics issues. Are some notes naturally louder than others? If they are, you have a string or a setup problem. The harmonics of the note are really important for getting a good tone, that is what goes away when the strings get old and is generally what the tone difference is between flatwounds and round wounds.
 
Farview said:
In my experience, flatwounds tend to be dead sounding. Old flatwounds would have to completely suck.
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I'm gonna have to disagree with this. James Jamerson used flatwounds, and did not change them until they broke. Didn't seem to hurt him any.

I also read the first paragraph of the article, and I already knew that the first harmonic was as strong, if not stronger than the fundamental. Usually when I do EQ notches, I do it in the 160-180 range where the first bass harmonic lies.
 
Massive Master said:
4:1 would be "killing" it also. 9:1 might as well be a hard limiter. Try 2:1. *Maybe* 3:1 if you're really out of control.

The biggest problem with most bassists I see is strings... Nothing sounds like fresh strings - Put a couple hours of playing time on fresh strings and they won't sound so fresh anymore no matter what you do with them. Adding a mic'd up amp wouldn't be out of the question either.
Click to expand...

Interesting?? 2:1 is pretty low.I have no problem with going 5,6,or7:1 on bass at all.It will depend on the threshold setting but I get nice natural results with a high ratio all the time. Of course it will always depend on the track source.
 
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Seafroggys said:
I'm gonna have to disagree with this. James Jamerson used flatwounds, and did not change them until they broke. Didn't seem to hurt him any.

I also read the first paragraph of the article, and I already knew that the first harmonic was as strong, if not stronger than the fundamental. Usually when I do EQ notches, I do it in the 160-180 range where the first bass harmonic lies.
Click to expand...
I suppose it all depends on the sound you are going for. All of the James Jameson stuff that I've been able to find really sounds dead and lifeless from a tone standpoint. It really works well in the song, which gives the illusion that there is something more going on, but the actual sound of it is dead. The performance is giving it life, not the tone.
 
There's a lot of tweaking that can be done with (especially active) electronics packages also - Not all bass guitars sound the same...
 
I'm way down the foodchain as far as mixing experience goes but the sound of bass guitars and specifically the change from the sound of the 60s to the "modern" sound is something that has intrigued me for some time. The OP stated that he was a fan of the McCartney bass sound. So am I. I've read that he was unhappy with his sound and wanted it to sound more like what he heard on American records. What he ended up doing was compressing it twice. Whether that's true or not, who knows.

Personally, I prefer the old bass sound that lacked the higher freqs that seems to be the standard bass sound now. So I'll keep my dead strings. Whether or not one would consider the difference between the sounds a matter of "tone" seems debatable to me.
 
^^^ Did you check out my recording?

Yeah, the only time McCartney had any sort of highs (at least during the 60s) was when he went through a fuzz box, most notably in Think for Yourself and Mean Mr. Mustard. Of the three basses he used, a Hofner 500/1, Richenbacher 4001, and a Fender Jazz, I'd have to say the Hofner was probably the meatiest (strong low end), the 4001 was the punchiest (strong upper bass, low mids, my favorite sound of his), and the Fender had the most attack (though it wasn't anywhere near as high end as you'd find nowadays), though all three were not that far removed from each other.

I guess what I'm trying to go for is the punchy sound, I'm almost there but need to try a few things first.
 
I'm no bass player but since most of my trqacks need some bass I have to do it and I usually DI mine into a track and then re amp it through some amp modelling plugs
That way I end up with an original track that sounds like it was played on a large rubber band but you can do all kind of wild and crazzy things to it after the fact that totally change the sound, micing position, try different mics pedals etc until you get what you need for the piece
 
Seafroggys said:
^^^ Did you check out my recording?
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Yes. There really isn't anything wrong with it other than it might need some more compression and the performance isn't quite there. I would also turn it up once you replay it.

The sound isn't really the problem.
 
I have listened to it now. Interesting tune. Are you a Gentle Giant/old Genesis fan by any chance?

My own taste would have me trying to reduce the attack of that bass and seeing where that left it.

BTW, I just saw that there is what is bound to be an interesting new book:

"Recording the Beatles" by Kevin Ryan & Brian Kehew

But at $500, I will wait for the paperback.

edit: It seems the publisher is selling it for $100. It is $500 at Amazon. Go figure.
 
GOYA said:
I'm way down the foodchain as far as mixing experience goes but the sound of bass guitars and specifically the change from the sound of the 60s to the "modern" sound is something that has intrigued me for some time. The OP stated that he was a fan of the McCartney bass sound. So am I. I've read that he was unhappy with his sound and wanted it to sound more like what he heard on American records. What he ended up doing was compressing it twice. Whether that's true or not, who knows.

Personally, I prefer the old bass sound that lacked the higher freqs that seems to be the standard bass sound now. So I'll keep my dead strings. Whether or not one would consider the difference between the sounds a matter of "tone" seems debatable to me.
Click to expand...
Mccartney bass sound changed a lot throught the years. The sound with the most highs was white album to my ears. Altec compressor also was key. Geoff Emerick used to d/i and then place a u47 something like 10 feet away from Pauls cab in middle of room. I mean his bass and all band bass sounds were very much in the background back in the 60's. Yes Mac liked American bass sound.G. Emerick I think was the first to convert speaker to microphone to handle the low freqs.Clever little bugger! I always like mac silly love songs bass sound, it similar to blue oyster cults dont fear the reaper and the knack's my sharona.
 
Yeah from Paperback Writer on, Emerick would throw a subwoofer in front of the amp and use that to record the bass. Brilliant, really.

I updated the mix, the link is the same. I threw on a Tube distortion on a send (ran out of inserts, its only Cubase LE), seemed to work pretty well. Sorry that the bass is a little loud (translation issues still being kinked out), but at least you can hear it better!

I tried re-recording the intro, didn't really get a better take yet, so back to practicing.

Are you a Gentle Giant/old Genesis fan by any chance?
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Funny you should say that. I've never heard Gentle Giant, but I am starting to get into Gabriel-era Genesis (Firth of Fifth = amazing! I did an online collab with somebody doing the guitar solo section), but I have listened to a lot of other prog, Crimson, Tull, Rush, ELP, etc. Although when I wrote this piece in 2004, my only "prog" experience was The Beatles, Dark Side of the Moon, and like two Jethro Tull songs. Kinda proud how this turned out, seeing as I never really listened to prog at that point in time.
 
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