headphones for mixing?

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roflcopter

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i keep seeing people say that you should never, ever use headphones to mix your project.

provided the fact that most people that hear my music will be hearing it through computer speakers, ipod earbuds, and/or car stereos, my theory was that if i just used earbuds to mix my songs, i would simply hear what everyone else would be hearing...i at least have those bose earbuds where there is SOME bass response, so that's a little better than the alarm clock speaker-sounding ipod earbuds.

why is this wrong? won't the sounds coming through my headphones be the same as what's coming through everyone else's headphones?
 
No, listening through speakers and headphones are different experiences. The soundstages are different, and this could cause problems . . . though this having been said, I mix on headphones all the time. Why? because a good room and good monitors are not available to me. You're better off mixing on really good headphones than good speakers in a so-so (or worse) room. Your observation that you (and most everyone else) will be listening in less than perfect environments on less than audiophile grade stuff has merit. The fact that it is very easy to burn a quick rough-mix CD and listen to it everywhere and anywhere (or an mp3) greatly increases your ability to get something good from your headphone mixes.
I know I'm going to get grief from people about this, but before you let me have it remember that I do what I must, not what I want. The monitors that I want cost a fortune, and the room that I need for the monitors is out of reach, for now, to say the least. My next purchase is another set of headphones which just got rave reviews in Mix magazine. So, take a chance, roflcopter--ignore precedent and do what you're gonna do (at least for a little while) anyway--you'll be surprised at the results.
 
cool. i thought i was going to get bombarded with reasons not to do that as well. thanks!
 
You can most definitely do what you want to do, but headphones will not yield great results. I understand the theory of not having another option and for rough mixes, but it is basically bad practice.
Unless you simply don't care about what people think of the quality of your music, keep mixing with headphones.
Monitors, IMO, is the most important piece of hardware that you can purchase. Hell, some good monitors can make a recording on a sub par mic sound decent. If you have a song worth recording/mixing, invest in monitors. You will hear it time and time again!!!!! I felt like you do until I bought monitors, and now I have since purchased another set. VERY IMPORTANT!!!
 
http://www.bluebearsound.com/articles/headphones.htm

not being able to hear phase issues is also a very important reason to consider avoiding headphones.

provided the fact that most people that hear my music will be hearing it through computer speakers, ipod earbuds, and/or car stereos, my theory was that if i just used earbuds to mix my songs, i would simply hear what everyone else would be hearing...
Click to expand...

how are the earbuds going to represent the computer speakers and car stereos? just because they're crappy speakers too? There's a lot more involved than just the quality of the speaker
 
bennychico11 said:
how are the earbuds going to represent the computer speakers and car stereos? just because they're crappy speakers too?
Click to expand...

yeah, basically. i figured the subtle nuances of high-quality recordings never come through with any of these listening mediums anyway, so it would be okay to use headphones at this point for me. besides, i am still very new to all of this...and that's all i can afford at this time. good monitors aren't cheap.

i'd like to get some good monitors one day.
 
Unless I completely don't care what other people think about the quality of
my music? What? If what I mix sounds good on a car stereo, and a good home stereo, and on an mp3 player, and on my headphones, what difference does it make? If I played you a bunch of songs and challenged you to pick out the one in which no monitors were used for mixdown, do you think you could do it?
The vast majority of folks out there in music land (Mp3 land nowadays) don't listen to their stuff on good equipment. This is well known and understood. Does this mean I don't give a shit what my music sounds like? Of course not. I'm going to make it sound as best as I can, with the equipment I've got. If I do the above listening experiments, comparing the sound to popular (and not so popular) music of similar style, and things are (in my humble opinion) sounding good, then the argument is over, and the whole monitor chase is pointless . . . .
Roflcopter, I should have been a bit clearer: I do use monitors to monitor with now and again--I'll solo a few instruments together, usually to
make precise edits and find the source of weird noises that seem to crop up out of nowhere. I certainly have blasted rough mixes out of my monitors. But I stand by my original advice to you.

Addendum: 1. Phase issues. A bad room, with even good monitors, can cause phase issues all by itself, while a perfectly good mix sits in the computer, waiting to be heard. Yes, phase issues are best addressed on monitors, but this does go back to my original complaint about the room/monitor nexus. There are plenty of engineers and producers who listen to mixes in different environments, trying to get a feel for it in these different
places.
2. A recording on a "sub-par mic" might sound good, and it might
not, but its also irrelevant. When you mix something, or create it on the computer, or whatever you do with your stuff, what does it sound like in the end, on the CD player, or in the mp3? Does the acoustic guitar recorded
on a Behinger B-1 (many would consider it a "sub-par mic," no?) that you
mixed in with 25 other tracks sound like you want it to sound, like you hoped it would sound? If it does, on many mediums, under many conditions, then you've succeeded.

P.S.: My monitors, for what its worth, are one-off Acoustic Image Speakers,
passive, powered by Adcom preamp and poweramp. Headphones are Sennheiser HD 280's.
 
again, read the link above. People aren't saying not to mix with headphones because they just are crappy speakers. If you just want to mix with crappy speakers, find some computer speakers to mix with. Because there is a lot more involved than just the quality of headphones. It has to do with psychoacoustics; or the way each individual perceives what's going on in the headphones. Yes a lot of consumers use headphones today...but there are also a lot of people who listen back on speakers. I think it's been a real long time since I've casually listened to music on headphones. However I have mixed with headphones and computer speakers...and I prefer the computer speakers over headphones any day.

Like is said in the above link, not only is your stereo imaging extremely skewed by separating the channels to play directly into each ear, but frequency response is also greatly effected because of the proximity of the speakers. Besides the limitations of the drivers on headphones at low frequencies, remember how large the wave lengths are of those really low notes?

Of course you said you're worried about mixes translating to crappy speakers. That's like saying why not just record with a crappy instrument into a crappy mic because it's going to be played back on an iPod anyway. Crappy speakers are just unreliable, period. Just as much as a crappy mic or a crappy instrument is. You'd think something mixed on a crap speaker would translate as the same crap on another crappy speaker. But what happens is it can make crap even crappier! :p Good quality monitors are extremely important. More important than all those plugins and outboard gear you spend your money on. They're the things that play back our mixes for our ears to hear. They need to give as true of a representation of the recording as they can give. No headphones is going to do that.

Do you think there's a reason why for years engineers prefer good quality monitors over anything else? It's not just because we like to waste our money. Yes, I could tell you a mix mixed with headphones versus a mix mixed on good quality monitors. And I know there are plenty of other people here who could do the same.

Regarding your phase addendum, yes a BAD room can create phase problems while you're listening to a mix. But headphones won't even SHOW you phase problems in your recordings! Because you don't have a L/R channel interacting with each other. Again, read the link above...he addresses your room question.

I'm not saying you shouldn't ever listen back to your mix on heaphones, a boom box or car stereo. You should. Every good engineer will double check that their mixes are going to translate well to those sources. But those engineers also have done enough mixes that they know how to make a studio monitor mix sound good on headphones too.
Yes, use what you have to for now. But you'll greatly benefit from saving up for good quality monitors.
 
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On a side note, didn't Sufjan Stevens mix either his Michigan or his Illionois record all with headphones?
 
I don't get why everyone's making this complicated. It's like asking if it matters what a painting looks like in full color, because most of the people that are viewing it are colorblind. The answer is yes and no, depending on if you give two shits about non-colorblind people. You can paint with drunk glasses on, but you'll never really know what your painting looks like...

Your question is impossible to answer unless you separate it into the two different questions you're actually asking:


Question 1: Can I reliably create mix after mix that translates well into all environments using sub-par monitoring; specifically, iPod earbuds?

Answer: No, you can't. It's impossible. If you can't hear frequencies below 80-100hz, you can't make accurate decisions about what's going on in those frequencies. If it were this simple, it'd be somewhat easy to fix, but the frequency response of iPod earbuds is nowhere near flat. On top of this, your brain cannot accurately predict what the stereo image of your mixes will sound like on a decent set of speakers when using headphones of any sort. Some are better, some are worse, but it's simply not possible. If your goal is to create mixes that translate well into all environments, INCLUDING iPods, car stereos, boom boxes, computer speakers, etc., you still need to mix using accurate monitors. You need to know what something sounds like in order to know what to change about the sound.


Question 2: If my mixes will be played back primarily in incredibly sub-par environments, does it really matter if my mixes sound any good on actual speakers?

Answer: It's a personal question, and as such can't be answered by anybody but you. If you couldn't care less about the listening experience on a set of mid-range to high-end speakers, then by all means don't worry about it! Based on question/answer #1, however, you will very quickly find that your mixes sound very different (usually not in a good way) on DIFFERENT consumer-grade headphones, DIFFERENT car speakers, and DIFFERENT computer speakers. This is because, regardless of quality...

All speaker systems are designed to play back music that was mixed on accurate monitors!

No company makes any sort of speakers or headphones with crappy mixes in mind.
 
I won't try to tell ya what to think. I'll just tell ya what I do. I do about 70% of my mixing with headphones. Then *I verify* the sound of the mix through speakers. If it sounds good in the headphones and the speakers... it's done. If not, I go back and re-mix until it does.
 
I use headphones all the time for the same reasons TimN stated. I live in an apartment building in a urban area, it's a lot of ambient noises, etc etc, so i use the 'phones. In the future i will be coppin me a pair of monitors but my mixes sound "acceptable" to me for now.
 
TimN said:
Unless I completely don't care what other people think about the quality of
my music? What? If what I mix sounds good on a car stereo, and a good home stereo, and on an mp3 player, and on my headphones, what difference does it make? If I played you a bunch of songs and challenged you to pick out the one in which no monitors were used for mixdown, do you think you could do it?
Click to expand...

Why in the world would you even attempt to justify NOT using monitors?:confused::confused::confused:


Only for the sake of monitors not being available, a room that is untreated/multi-angled, and just plain unusable to mix in, noise purposes, and perhaps a few other instances, then I can understand. Do what you need to do! But, this is a newbie section. Roflcopter sounds like he was looking for someone to give him the nod and say "Nah, you don't need monitors, headphones could yield just as good results". Using the hit or miss factor, who knows; case by case? But I sure as Hell would not encourage someone new to recording, to rely on mixing with headphones if he's good at it.
And yes I will say it again. You should take pride in your music and when possible get the best sound you can get. Monitors, as well as other factors, are on a long list of necessities relative to recording.
What really made me laugh was when you ended with saying you own a pair of monitors?:confused::confused::confused:
 
The only way that you could get consistantly good results from phones would be if you wanna lay out a grand or two for some top line phones and head phone amp, specifically, something from Headroom who use a compensation circuit that'll really make them pretty close to speakers soundstage wise.
I have JBL monitors and I have a high end headphone system and they're extremely close soundwise.

BUT ..... if you don't already have monitors ..... why would you spend a couple grand on a headphone rig?
With the really crappy 'phones you're talking about ..... you're gonna miss so much detail and you'll never ever get the bass anywhere near right.
It'll sound different on everything you put it thru.
Get some monitors ..... even cheap ones will do a lot better.
 
I've got monitors . . . I use them . . . and headphones . . . jeesh, I was just giving a little advice to the feller, and now this food fight over the monitors.
Read the posts--I mentioned that I do indeed use monitors, for God's sake. What's with the impugning of musical tastes, directions, and beliefs? It's impossible for anyone to judge what I've done or not done with the stuff I've recorded . . . without hearing it. I never told Rolfcopter to only and always use headphones for mixing; I, like Rolfcopter, will continue to use headphones (under close and monitored supervision, of course) to listen to things . . . . Someday I, and Rolfcopter, will possess just the monitors (and, later, rooms) we want. This is the last post from this amateur on this topic.

P.S.: Producer XL pretty much nails it with his comment.
P.s.s.: Sorry, Rolfcopter--I don't mean to speak for you, but I'm guessing you might be thinking along these lines.
 
McParadigm said:
On a side note, didn't Sufjan Stevens mix either his Michigan or his Illionois record all with headphones?
Click to expand...

Double-checked. He did indeed mix Illinoise with headphones, recording on a digital 8-track with liberal use of an SM57 for most instruments and an AT4033 for vocals.

Damn fine sounding record.
 
TimN said:
I've got monitors . . . I use them . . . and headphones . . . jeesh, I was just giving a little advice to the feller, and now this food fight over the monitors.
Read the posts--I mentioned that I do indeed use monitors, for God's sake. What's with the impugning of musical tastes, directions, and beliefs? It's impossible for anyone to judge what I've done or not done with the stuff I've recorded . . . without hearing it. I never told Rolfcopter to only and always use headphones for mixing; I, like Rolfcopter, will continue to use headphones (under close and monitored supervision, of course) to listen to things . . . . Someday I, and Rolfcopter, will possess just the monitors (and, later, rooms) we want. This is the last post from this amateur on this topic.

P.S.: Producer XL pretty much nails it with his comment.
P.s.s.: Sorry, Rolfcopter--I don't mean to speak for you, but I'm guessing you might be thinking along these lines.
Click to expand...


I apologize!

your point is well taken!
 
the biggest problem I have with phones is ear fatigue, but think it's a valid detail mixing device. Plus decent monitors cost big $ and you can still overlook things you don't hear in little settings.
 
I only ever need rough mixes to demo/write band songs but I use headphones for the same reason as TimN. I'd love good monitors but the ones I want are too expensive so they sit on the wish list for the time being.
 
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