Guitarist and Amp in separate rooms?

[Greg_L]

It can go both ways. Some people really have shit tone and need to be told so.

If it were me, I'd tell you to go fuck yourself and track right next to my amp at 1 billion decibels.

 

[ecc83]

Wow.
And you talk about super ego guitarist?
A recordists job is to serve, not to dwell in his own greatness.
And given I was the guitarist, I would not give a flying fuck about what you think I should sound like.
That's the musicians and/or producers call.
Sound recording engineers of decades standing and experience should have got that down.

Nothing like a bit of hyperbole to get the juices flowing!

I am not talking about myself. I am saying that a guitarist who does not listen to man of Jay's standing IS an egotistical idiot. I was posting elsewhere with Jay long before I began here.

Then my son is an excellent guitarist (wiwstwi?) and he tells me that after his ears have had 20mins in front of even a moderately loud amp, he is no longer a good judge of "tone".

Dave.

 

[ecc83]

It can go both ways. Some people really have shit tone and need to be told so.

If it were me, I'd tell you to go fuck yourself and track right next to my amp at 1 billion decibels.

You have a foot in both camps Greg so you are excused duty!

Dave.

 

[miroslav]

Some people really have shit tone and need to be told so.

See....that's what the producer is there for.

 

[Greg_L]

See....that's what the producer is there for.

I would think the engineer would know better in that scenario. He probably knows more than some talentless mouthpiece calling himself a producer.

 

[miroslav]

Oh I'm sure he does....but I bet even the engineer would let the producer tell the guitar player that his tone sucks.

 

[Greg_L]

Oh I'm sure he does....but I bet even the engineer would let the producer tell the guitar player that his tone sucks.

Okay yeah I can see that. Producers like to feel important and ride for free off the work of others.

 

[Farview]

I think what Jay is trying to say is that a sound recording engineer of decades standing and experience is far more likely to get a good guitar sound than some 10% deaf already, wet behind the ears guitar super ego!


Dave.

I would like to point ouit that I didn't say thsi

 

[Farview]

Wow.
And you talk about super ego guitarist?
A recordists job is to serve, not to dwell in his own greatness.
And given I was the guitarist, I would not give a flying fuck about what you think I should sound like.
That's the musicians and/or producers call.
Sound recording engineers of decades standing and experience should have got that down.

Again, I didn't say that.

What I do is I help the guitarist dial in HIS sound as he is listening through the monitors in the control room. It's still his sound, but it is his sound through the mics, not necessarily in the cabinet room. But it doesn't matter, because no one is in that room to notice that it sounds different.

I really don't agree that I'm simply there to serve. I'm not a butler. I'm also the first guy that's going to be blamed when it doesn't sound good, so I do need to help wrangle everyone's sound. I have done projects with people with your attitude and a shit tone, I've asked not to be credited.

 

[miroslav]

I really don't agree that I'm simply there to serve. I'm not a butler. I'm also the first guy that's going to be blamed when it doesn't sound good, so I do need to help wrangle everyone's sound. I have done projects with people with your attitude and a shit tone, I've asked not to be credited.

Again....I get what you are saying, and the times I have worked with other people, I always inject myself into the production process, 'cuz like you said, if it's shit, they look at you like you did something wrong.
Being a musician myself, I feel that I CAN have an opinion about the guitars or the keys or the vocals, etc.
I just think (I'm sure you do this) it's necessary to approach criticizing the "shit tones" of others with a bit of tact when you're in the studio (unlike the interwebs )...
...and yeah, sometimes you have to coddle and stroke egos a bit to get there....which again, is what the producers are for!

 

[Farview]

Again....I get what you are saying, and the times I have worked with other people, I always inject myself into the production process, 'cuz like you said, if it's shit, they look at you like you did something wrong.
Being a musician myself, I feel that I CAN have an opinion about the guitars or the keys or the vocals, etc.
I just think (I'm sure you do this) it's necessary to approach criticizing the "shit tones" of others with a bit of tact when you're in the studio (unlike the interwebs )...
...and yeah, sometimes you have to coddle and stroke egos a bit to get there....which again, is what the producers are for!

I've found that if you sit down and explain to people what is going on and how everything needs to fit together, what you are doing and why, it is almost never a problem.

And again, if you get the guy in the control room and he hears what's coming out of the speakers, you usually don't have to tell him anything. Everyone involved wants it to sound a good as it can and is generally pretty cooperative. And again, you can change the tone a lot, as long as you don't change the way the guitar feels when he is playing it, he will be pretty comfortable.

If the guy's sound is WAY out there, I just take a DI so I can re-amp later if necessary. If the guy is insistent that his sound is the best sound in the world, that's what he gets and I just work to make it less annoying.

Also, if the guy really needs to be in the same room with his amp, he can be in the same room with his amp. It's not like it's against the rules or anything. It's somewhat counterproductive sometimes, but if that's what makes him comfortable... A comfortable player will have a better performance. A better performance with a shit sound will (mostly) come off better than a half-assed performance with an awesome tone.

Another funny thing about this is once you get a great sound in the studio, that sound will more or less translate live as well. Since most of the time the audience hears you through a mic, it's probably best that your amp sounds good through a mic.

By the way, I spent most of my life as a guitar player, so it isn't like I haven't been on the other side of the glass. I'm also a drummer as well.

 

[b00n]

It's not like it's against the rules or anything. It's somewhat counterproductive sometimes, but if that's what makes him comfortable... A comfortable player will have a better performance. A better performance with a shit sound will (mostly) come off better than a half-assed performance with an awesome tone.

Yes!
I wholeheartedly agree.

 

[ecc83]

I would like to point ouit that I didn't say thsi

No you certainly didn't Jay and I apologize if people got a wrong impression.

There can however be circumstances when a guitarist might have to spend many hours playing in takes. A teaching video say or a technical situation. Here he would need to divorce himself from the constant loud noise in order to keep concentration and his hearing!

Excellent guitarist tho he is, my son dislikes very loud sounds and gets "ear fatigue" very quickly.

Dave.

 

[Greg_L]

Excellent guitarist tho he is, my son dislikes very loud sounds and gets "ear fatigue" very quickly.

Dave.

Ha, get rid of that Blackstar amp and get him a good one.

 

[ecc83]

Ha, get rid of that Blackstar amp and get him a good one.

Cheeky sod! He is still in France atmo but he quite likes his HT-20 (but only the clean channel) running into a Greenback (the 55Hz one) . Also have a 15W "Dominator Clone" much modded by Dad in an attempt to get an AC 15isk tone.

I have bought him an ID Core 40 and it will be interesting to see his reaction! He plays mainly clubs and cafes over there so 40watts should be adequate. Mostly jazz as well.

Have you tried a Series One Greg? On another forum some guys said they were pretty good and they all thought that the amps were all valves!

Dave.

 

[Greg_L]

Cheeky sod! He is still in France atmo but he quite likes his HT-20 (but only the clean channel) running into a Greenback (the 55Hz one) . Also have a 15W "Dominator Clone" much modded by Dad in an attempt to get an AC 15isk tone.

I have bought him an ID Core 40 and it will be interesting to see his reaction! He plays mainly clubs and cafes over there so 40watts should be adequate. Mostly jazz as well.

Have you tried a Series One Greg? On another forum some guys said they were pretty good and they all thought that the amps were all valves!

Dave.

No I haven't.

I just googled them....

Are they not all-tube? The product descriptions say they have a layout of 12ax7 and EL34 or 6L6 tubes.

 

[ecc83]

No I haven't.

I just googled them....

Are they not all-tube? The product descriptions say they have a layout of 12ax7 and EL34 or 6L6 tubes.

Well, they ain't gonna call them HYBRIDS are they? ! Mesa don't!

Heh. Yes, EL34, 6L6, KT88, ECC83 and lone ECC82. But the front end is a very high headroom (higher than a valve in fact) fet opamp and the EQ and voicing is mostly solid state. There is a double triode for each channel, i.e one for clean, on for OD1 , one for OD2. The dynamic power control (no use to you Greg, even on the S1 200!) is of course all op amps and power MOSFETs.

Dave.

 

[Greg_L]

Well, they ain't gonna call them HYBRIDS are they? ! Mesa don't!

Heh. Yes, EL34, 6L6, KT88, ECC83 and lone ECC82. But the front end is a very high headroom (higher than a valve in fact) fet opamp and the EQ and voicing is mostly solid state. There is a double triode for each channel, i.e one for clean, on for OD1 , one for OD2. The dynamic power control (no use to you Greg, even on the S1 200!) is of course all op amps and power MOSFETs.

Dave.

Interesting. I don't fully understand though. So is the front end like a solid-state preamp feeding the preamp tubes?

 

[ecc83]

Interesting. I don't fully understand though. So is the front end like a solid-state preamp feeding the preamp tubes?

Errr? Sort of but!
Yes there is a 12dB front end VLNoise pre amp and that drives some level checking and voicing stuff. The signal is then shunted off to a triode for mangling or just a bit of "crunch". Back for more voicing/EQ/control. Back to triode, then on to ECC83+ECC82 balanced PI and very low impedance driver to the output valves.

It is, admittedly a very "scientific", engineer's approach to amp building, the company likes to have as much control of the signals as possible then let the punter let rip! ...Does not please everyone I know.

The company also puts at least as much effort into reliability as sound quality (one of my jobs was basically to test stuff to near destruction) and in that I am pretty sure they have succeeded?

Sorry for the spam!

Dave.

 

[Greg_L]

Errr? Sort of but!
Yes there is a 12dB front end VLNoise pre amp and that drives some level checking and voicing stuff. The signal is then shunted off to a triode for mangling or just a bit of "crunch". Back for more voicing/EQ/control. Back to triode, then on to ECC83+ECC82 balanced PI and very low impedance driver to the output valves.

It is, admittedly a very "scientific", engineer's approach to amp building, the company likes to have as much control of the signals as possible then let the punter let rip! ...Does not please everyone I know.

The company also puts at least as much effort into reliability as sound quality (one of my jobs was basically to test stuff to near destruction) and in that I am pretty sure they have succeeded?

Sorry for the spam!

Dave.

Sounds interesting. So the signal goes in, gets SS boosted a little, sent to some SS "voicing", then to a tube stage for clipping, then to more "voicing", the back to the second tube stage, then through the PI onto the power section? Crazy! I will honestly reserve judgement until I try one in person. But wtf is wrong with just a basic tube driven preamp section? Amps have been doing that for decades and sound great doing it. I certainly don't know anything about amp design, but I have learned that juggling a few caps and resistors have a massive impact on the gain and sound. And it's simple.

Honestly, a lot of amps sound mediocre or just plain bad these days, and I don't think it's coincidence that they've also become a billion times more complicated than they need to be.