Guitar Tuning and Temperament Primer (revised)
- Thread starter muttley600
- Start date
TelePaul
J to the R O C
Doesn't he have a lever that'll drop to drop D with the flick of a switch? I could swear he did at one point.
meowadishi
New member
GO FRETLESS!!!
Problem solved.
Problem solved.
nave
Cave Relic
A discussion of the physics of a vibrating string is a thoroughly academic discussion. Not that it isn't interesting (it is) or that there is anything wrong with that (there isn't), or that there aren't any practical applications (there are), but Slim is right to call the discussion academic. The practical implications are much less relevant to average, or even professional, guitar players, than to luthiers and engineers.
Beyond their concerns, the discussion is surely a relief for someone with a decent ear who is unaware of equal temperament, and perhaps spent a lot of money on an instrument that he worried was defective out of the box.
The relevance to guitar players ends there, because any player with a remotely decent pair of ears, natural or trained, will, by definition, learn to solve these tuning problems intuitively (i.e. without any special knowledge of the physics of vibrating strings or esoteric tuning techniques); while those without good ears are unfazed by a problem they can't recognize in the first place.
It is, therefore, interesting, but not imperative knowledge.
Beyond their concerns, the discussion is surely a relief for someone with a decent ear who is unaware of equal temperament, and perhaps spent a lot of money on an instrument that he worried was defective out of the box.
The relevance to guitar players ends there, because any player with a remotely decent pair of ears, natural or trained, will, by definition, learn to solve these tuning problems intuitively (i.e. without any special knowledge of the physics of vibrating strings or esoteric tuning techniques); while those without good ears are unfazed by a problem they can't recognize in the first place.
It is, therefore, interesting, but not imperative knowledge.
Last edited:
muttley600
Banned
I was asked to write this stickie. What were you asked to do? Act like a bitter demented and senile old man all the time...
crazydoc
Master Baiter
Exactly. This is why I stopped playing guitar, and now go with bass viol, fretless electric bass, guitarron, dobro, pedal and lap steel. If it sounds shitty (and it usually does) at least I know it's my own fault, and not due to an inherent fault of the instrument. And at least it has the potential to sound wonderful, unlike a guitar.
muttley600
Banned
Exactly. This is why I stopped playing guitar, and now go with bass viol, fretless electric bass, guitarron, dobro, pedal and lap steel. If it sounds shitty (and it usually does) at least I know it's my own fault, and not due to an inherent fault of the instrument. And at least it has the potential to sound wonderful, unlike a guitar.
Wow Bass viol, thats coo, you don't see much use for them these days.. If you don't mind me asking do you temper the frets o0n that when playing it?
crazydoc
Master Baiter
I was using the term as a synonym, perhaps incorrectly, for double bass, upright bass, standup bass, bass fiddle, contrabass or what have you. Sorry for the confusion.
Of course, none have frets.
muttley600
Banned
Ahh OK gotcha. Shame because the bass viol is a real nice sounding instrument.
Lt. Bob
Spread the Daf!
having heard literally thousands of guitars and guitar performances sound wonderful I'll have to say that statement is pretty damned incorrect.. And at least it has the potential to sound wonderful, unlike a guitar.
And I'm a piano tuner BTW (35+ years) so I do have ears.
crazydoc
Master Baiter
I was just being a wise-ass - see the smiley?
I too have heard wonderful guitar performances - I imagine part of it lies in knowing which strings to use for which notes in which keys, to minimize the tuning discrepancies.
gcolbert
Sonar Fanboi
Hey Muttley!
Thanks for the sticky post. Academic or theoretical or practical - no matter. It explains rather clearly why I spend way too much time with my chromatic tuner, only to have to 'untune' things to make the cords sound right. Thanks for explaining why my ears seem to work better than the tuner (even though my ears are pretty shot).
Thanks for the sticky post. Academic or theoretical or practical - no matter. It explains rather clearly why I spend way too much time with my chromatic tuner, only to have to 'untune' things to make the cords sound right. Thanks for explaining why my ears seem to work better than the tuner (even though my ears are pretty shot).
Thanks for the interesting post Mutt. I'm going to try and tune my guitar up in the way your article explained. I've been playing guitar for quite some time (I should be a lot better then I am but I'm lazy, what can I say?) and I've always had a hard time dealing with the limitations of 12ET. My ear seems to pick up the slightest inconsistencies in tuning and sometimes it drives me bat shit crazy! I appreciate your post but I think you let a little disagreement get the better of you.
Nave wrote:
"A discussion of the physics of a vibrating string is a thoroughly academic discussion. Not that it isn't interesting (it is) or that there is anything wrong with that (there isn't), or that there aren't any practical applications (there are), but Slim is right to call the discussion academic. The practical implications are much less relevant to average, or even professional, guitar players, than to luthiers and engineers. Beyond their concerns, the discussion is surely a relief for someone with a decent ear who is unaware of equal temperament, and perhaps spent a lot of money on an instrument that he worried was defective out of the box.
The relevance to guitar players ends there, because any player with a remotely decent pair of ears, natural or trained, will, by definition, learn to solve these tuning problems intuitively (i.e. without any special knowledge of the physics of vibrating strings or esoteric tuning techniques); while those without good ears are unfazed by a problem they can't recognize in the first place. It is, therefore, interesting, but not imperative knowledge."
What was so wrong with Nave's take on the subject? He wasn't being confrontational in the least and was very polite? The subject is by its very nature academic. Once you get into physics and mathematics how could it be anything other then academic?
Regardless, I still appreciate your efforts and agree that the majority of miracle cures being advertized are almost always snake oil scams. Just because a few big name players (Stu Ham) endorse a product doesn't mean the product actually works as advertized. I recall a post about this guy's new nut design where one of our members emailed him and he admitted that it didn't solve the problem all over the neck, only for the first few frets. People will do almost anything to stuff a few extra bucks in their pockets. I fell for the Spertzel locking tuner scam even after a more experienced guitar player warned me that it would be a waste of money. I should have went with experience instead of marketing hype. My problem was solved by using a different method of stringing my guitar.
Don't let a few disagreements get you down, the information you posted will definitely be a benefit to some players. You can't please everyone in this world.
Take it easy,
-laz.
Nave wrote:
"A discussion of the physics of a vibrating string is a thoroughly academic discussion. Not that it isn't interesting (it is) or that there is anything wrong with that (there isn't), or that there aren't any practical applications (there are), but Slim is right to call the discussion academic. The practical implications are much less relevant to average, or even professional, guitar players, than to luthiers and engineers. Beyond their concerns, the discussion is surely a relief for someone with a decent ear who is unaware of equal temperament, and perhaps spent a lot of money on an instrument that he worried was defective out of the box.
The relevance to guitar players ends there, because any player with a remotely decent pair of ears, natural or trained, will, by definition, learn to solve these tuning problems intuitively (i.e. without any special knowledge of the physics of vibrating strings or esoteric tuning techniques); while those without good ears are unfazed by a problem they can't recognize in the first place. It is, therefore, interesting, but not imperative knowledge."
What was so wrong with Nave's take on the subject? He wasn't being confrontational in the least and was very polite? The subject is by its very nature academic. Once you get into physics and mathematics how could it be anything other then academic?
Regardless, I still appreciate your efforts and agree that the majority of miracle cures being advertized are almost always snake oil scams. Just because a few big name players (Stu Ham) endorse a product doesn't mean the product actually works as advertized. I recall a post about this guy's new nut design where one of our members emailed him and he admitted that it didn't solve the problem all over the neck, only for the first few frets. People will do almost anything to stuff a few extra bucks in their pockets. I fell for the Spertzel locking tuner scam even after a more experienced guitar player warned me that it would be a waste of money. I should have went with experience instead of marketing hype. My problem was solved by using a different method of stringing my guitar.
Don't let a few disagreements get you down, the information you posted will definitely be a benefit to some players. You can't please everyone in this world.
Take it easy,
-laz.
Bubba po
Tiny Stonehenge Moment
The best stuff has tuning discrepancies, in my opinion. There's nothing worse or more anodyne than perfect tuning - just listen to any autotune-treated vocal.
Guitar tuning and temperament primer.
A method of tuning the guitar to play well in 12ET,
I make no apologies for cribbing this instruction directly from an article in the GAL Journal published some years ago. There are quite a few methods of tempering your guitar when tuning but this one is about the best I have come across. Essentially you are trying to tune all strings with reference to a single note at either the unison or octave. Try it
Tune the 1st and 6th strings: The E, open 1st string, should be in pure unison with the harmonic of the E, 6th string at the fifth fret.
Tune the 4th string: Play a harmonic on the (in tune) 6th string at the 12th fret, adjust the 4th string until the E on the second fret is in pure unison.
Tune the 2nd string: Play a harmonic on the (in tune) 4th string at twelve. As this sounds, adjust the 2nd string until D at the 3rd fret is in pure unison.
Tune the 3rd string: Play a harmonic on the (in tune) 4th string at twelve and as this sounds, adjust the 3rd string until D at the 7th fret is in pure unison. Your done now check it.
Double check: Play a harmonic on the (now tuned) G string at twelve, and as this tone sounds, play G on the 1st string at three. The two tones should be in pure unison. If they are not, you've done it wrong or the instrument doesn't fret in tune at seven. Go back to the beginning and carefully check each step up to this point. If the tones are still faulty, then readjust the 3rd string until the harmonic at twelve is in unison with the 1st at three. Do not tamper with the 1st and 4th strings because it is the 3rd string you are trying to bring in tune. When you have the 1st, 6th, 4th, 2nd and 3rd strings in tune, in that order, continue with the remaining 5th string.
Tune the 5th string: Play the A on the (in tune) 3rd string, at the 2nd fret. Listen to this pitch carefully and now adjust the 5th string until the harmonic at twelve is in pure unison. When the foregoing steps are followed correctly, the strings will be tuned perfectly to equal temperament. No further tuning adjustments will help you now..
That’s all for now! Any questions?
I feel stupid just reading this. I have no idea what you're talking about. LOL! I'd like to know, but i've been stuck with my cheapy $14 korg tuner for many years. Maybe a video instruction??
Victory Pete
Banned
I highly recommend this tuner Peterson Strobe Tuners - V-SAM it is very accurate, has many different tuning modes for different instruments and has a built in tone generator and metronome. When I first used it on my Martin D12-28 I was astounded by the sound. I had never heard that guitar sound so exact, pure harmony with virtually no interference beating.
VP
VP
Attachments
Bubba po
Tiny Stonehenge Moment
Didn't you read and understand Muttley's opening post? No electronic tuner can make your guitar perfectly in tune for all keys. There are tuning compromises that you have to make, and you have to do them by ear. This is because of Mathematics and Physics.
Victory Pete
Banned
I have had a good understanding of the pros and cons of "Equal Temperament" and "Just Intonation" for decades before I even knew what a "Muttley" was. And no, the ear can not accurately make the intentional compromises necessary for "Equal Temperament" which is by far the most popular tuning used today. The ear can perhaps tune a single chord accurately but then all other chords will be significantly out of tune, hence the development of "Equal Temperament" centuries ago.
VP
BTW: the ratio for "Equal Temperament" is 2 to the 1/12 power or 1.0594630943592952621139457724048
Last edited:
JimmyS1969
MOODerator
Umm.. What?