Guitar Setup Question - Valid unexpected modification?

:D
(stupid minimal post requirements)
Not really getting the joke, but sorry if I chafed you in some way, LB... it's just a very frustrating situation on my end.

Realistically, yeah, I should have known more about guitar setups, but I didn't, and now I'm paying for it in a big way. I do appreciate your feedback about fixing it up, and the owner of the store said, back when I called the day of the setup, that the tech would try his best to make me happy. And I don't really believe the tech's a bad guy, either - I wouldn't have let him touch the guitar if I had - I'm just unhappy with the results. And the fact is, in addition to being VERY wary about having another setup or correction done on the guitar (what the hell's gonna happen THIS time), I _still_ don't know enough to say what I want. So I really feel like I'm up the creek.

I guess worst case scenario, I just kill my fingers for a few years until I can afford a new guitar. I dunno.
 
Not really getting the joke, but sorry if I chafed you in some way, LB... it's just a very frustrating situation on my end.
no no ..... the comment about stupid minimum post wasn't directed at you, I was referring to the fact that I couldn't post just a smiley ... the forum requires 10 characters minimum.

And the reason I posted a laughing smiley was because I thought you were making a joke about the the guitar tech having 20+ years experience which is exactly the amount of experience you have.

No, you haven't chafed me in any way and I'm sympathetic to your frustration so I'm sorry if I laughed when you weren't actually making a joke. I just thought you were .... that's all.

I don't know what the best course of action is but I do know that whenever I've had an unhappy customer ..... I would go to great lenghts to make sure he ended up happy and a regular customer.
If you have any faith in this guy at all ..... then I think I'd personally give him a shot at fixing things making sure that you talk at length and thoroughly about what you don't like and what he intends to do about it.
Sometimes the guys that have to go back and fix stuff that wasn't quite right can become your trusted techs.
Good luck and keep us posted.
 
As a piano tuner/tech .... I can tell you that I always stand behind my work. Different players have different needs and, though it's rare, once every year or so someone will want their piano a bit different than I had set it up. I go, for free, carefully question them to be sure I understand EXACTLY what their objections are and what they'd like done instead and then I fix it, as I should if they were unhappy with my first work. I don't think I've ever had anyone unhappy the second time...


Damn straight. I've been hesitant to suggest this, as the repair guy in question has already shown at least one highly questionable practice (the epoxy/fret thing), but I would at least give the guy a call to see if he wants to make it right. The last thing we tell every single setup customer when they pickup their guitar is 'if you find anything weird when you get home and play it in "real life," let us know. Just because we have your money and you're out the door doesn't mean we're done.' In general, we give folks two weeks or so to try it in real life (sometimes more - less if they have us do something we have told them is unwise), and if we missed something, fixing it is part of the original job. Just don't come back to us a year later and say it was never right.

Oh, and we've made some colossal mistakes. The best one was back in the seventies. One of our repair guys was looking at a customer's banjo neck (the customer had made it himself, and it was really nice bit of work - a very nice and fancy carved neck and all, but had a problematic back bow). Right then, our two shop dogs at the time (that repair guys 200+ lbs. Saint Bernard, and my dad's 65 lbs. Standard poodle) who NEVER fought, started fighting right at his feet. He took the customer's banjo neck and started whacking his dog on the back - and proceeded to break the banjo neck completely in two. Right in front of the customer.

Needless to say, we made him a new neck free of charge. The customer is still a regular, though that repair guy left a few years later (nothing to do with his work, by the way, he was one of the most naturally talented repair guys you'll ever find).


Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi
 
The best one was back in the seventies. One of our repair guys was looking at a customer's banjo neck (the customer had made it himself, and it was really nice bit of work - a very nice and fancy carved neck and all, but had a problematic back bow). Right then, our two shop dogs at the time (that repair guys 200+ lbs. Saint Bernard, and my dad's 65 lbs. Standard poodle) who NEVER fought, started fighting right at his feet. He took the customer's banjo neck and started whacking his dog on the back - and proceeded to break the banjo neck completely in two. Right in front of the customer.
BWAHAHAHAHAHA!

OMG!

That's the funniest thing!
Oh man ....... best laugh I've had in a while!


Holy crap that's ..... funny!
:D:D:D:D:D



whew ....... "There's nothing else you could have beat your dogs with?"
hahahaha ...... I keep picturing the look on the customers' face .....
what if he'd been holding a guitar? ........ I can just see him banging away on his dogs with someones' old Martin ........ hahahahaha!


:D
wow ..... thanks man.

:)
 
No, you haven't chafed me in any way and I'm sympathetic to your frustration so I'm sorry if I laughed when you weren't actually making a joke. I just thought you were .... that's all.
Ah, okay. I honestly couldn't figure it out. Yeah, it wasn't a joke... just an odd coincidence that that number popped up on both accounts. Supposedly, he's been doing the work for over 20 years, and I've been playing for just under 20 years.

I don't know what the best course of action is but I do know that whenever I've had an unhappy customer ..... I would go to great lenghts to make sure he ended up happy and a regular customer.
If you have any faith in this guy at all ..... then I think I'd personally give him a shot at fixing things making sure that you talk at length and thoroughly about what you don't like and what he intends to do about it.
Sometimes the guys that have to go back and fix stuff that wasn't quite right can become your trusted techs.
Good luck and keep us posted.
I've been reluctant to go back, mostly due to the feeling of geting "burned", but my original problem was the appearance of the nut - now it's more the general feel of the guitar, so maybe it's worth it. It would be great if the guy could fix it up, too - first, it's no additional charge (as far as I know), second, he's nearby, and third, it would be good to have a single tech who knows the guitar's history and my preferences.

The big trick is figuring out exactly what's up, and how to say what I want before I bring it back - I'm still sorely lacking in knowledge and terminology. He guarantees his work for 6 months, so I do at least have time on my side. And I still have the option to try the truss rod adjustment, at least short-term - he recommended generally the same degree of turn -15-20%, I think

The overwhelming consensus, both here and elsewhere, is that the tech didn't really do anything strange or wrong from a technical perspective, but that he probably should have been a bit more up front about exactly what the changes and work were going to entail. That said, I'll probably follow the advice here and give him another chance to fix up the guitar, or at least let him know what probems I'm having and see what he comes up with. If the second trip doesn't fix things, then I'll consider looking elsewhere. If all else fails, I have the other tech that did the setup several months back.

Light - Wow, that dog story is classic - sounds like a legend among legends of repair horror stories. I can't even imagine the customer's reaction to seeing his beautiful custom banjo's neck shattering over the back of a dog. Talk about "dueling banjos"... :D
 
He shouldnt have done that without letting you know before hand.I do my own work as well as others and although cleaning,filing,reshaping and replacing are part of a set-up,I always let people know AHEAD of time what they're looking at.
 
BWAHAHAHAHAHA!

OMG!

That's the funniest thing!
Oh man ....... best laugh I've had in a while!


Holy crap that's ..... funny!
:D:D:D:D:D



whew ....... "There's nothing else you could have beat your dogs with?"
hahahaha ...... I keep picturing the look on the customers' face .....
what if he'd been holding a guitar? ........ I can just see him banging away on his dogs with someones' old Martin ........ hahahahaha!


:D
wow ..... thanks man.

:)

There is another great story - this one isn't from my shop - about a repair person (also a very good repair person) who had someone bring in an old dirty as hell Martin Classical. She performed the setup, and as any conscientious repair person would, cleaned all the dirt and grim off the guitar (and there was a LOT - as in caked on mud and crud). The customer comes in to pick it up, and she pulls out the case and proudly (well, one assumes proudly, as it makes for a better story) opens it up to show the customer. His face goes absolutely aghast, and in a horified tones says, "what did you do - that was Woodstock dirt!" He made her dig all the cleaning rags out of the trash (which ,fortunately, she hadn't taken out yet!)

The important point there? Always ask before you do ANYTHING.



Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi
 
Get yourself a copy of "Make Your Electric Guitar Play Great" by Dan Erlewine, even if you dont do any work yourself there is a great wealth of knowledge in there. That way you can get an idea of the process involved
 
I'd like to have it taken care of, but the only person who will do it for free (under guarantee) is the tech that screwed it up, and I'm extremely reluctant to bring anything to that tech. So it's either deal with it, entrust it to the person who messed it up in the first place, or spend more money I really don't have and either roll the dice with another new tech or go back to the one that took care of it the time before last. Not really good choices all around - I'm definitely regretting having the work done now.

This sucks.

HomeRec - for what it's worth, from the description you've given us, I don't think that it's fair to say the tech "screwed it up" when he set up your guitar. Rather, he seems to have done the sort of setup job that most of us would consider a good setup - he corrected your intonation (which was almost certainly off if it hadn't been set in 20 years) lowered your action, and straightened some excess bow out of the neck. Most people would pick up the "after" guitar and, comparing it to the "before" guitar, would say that it plays way better and your tech was pretty good.

The problem here though is that while the setup now corresponds to what the MAJORITY of players would consider a good setup, it's not right FOR YOU. Some guys just dig higher action - I can confirm that sometimes a higher setup DOES feel a little "slinkier" under the fingers, and that bending can be tough on lower action than you're used to because it's tough to get your fingers "under" the strings and to get enough leverage.

So, you can do one of two things. One, live with it, wait for your taste in setups to change, and gradually begin to feel comfortable on a neck that will allow you to play faster and smoother than before, or two, take it back to the tech and say, "I appreciate your work, but really I just can't get used to the lower action. Can you raise it a bit?" He can't file back the nut, but he could certainly put some more bow back in the neck and raise the bridge a hair, which would return action across most of the neck to where you like it (the first fret or two would probably still feel a little low to you, but I'm guessing most of your current problem is higher on the neck than this).

So, really, the tech doesn't seem to have "screwed anything up" to me, or really done anything wrong except maybe make absolutely sure you knew what he meant when he said he wanted to reshape the nut. I suspect the guy's pretty competent, and would be more than happy to add a little more neck relief to raise the action for you, probably free of charge.



EDIT - and +1 to just sucking it up and learning how to set up your own guitars. This is the main reason I learned how to do tech work (or rather, the mainr eason was I'm naturally inquisitive and couldn't resist tinkering, but after the fact this is how I justify it :p) - only you know exactly how you want a guitar to play; a tech can set up a guitar just fine, but he won't know what "perfect" is to you. This is a huge advantage you have over every tech in the world.
 
See? In his stories it was someone else messing up, lol.

Oh, I've messed up plenty, but they are far less entertaining (to me, at least!) I've drilled through the tops of $300+ pieces of maple while drilling wiring chases to the pickup cavities, I've tried to drill strap button holes in to the anchors for Taylor's bolt on necks, and I've dropped freshly sprayed guitars into piles of saw dust. And many other things besides. Most of them only two or three times! But those are boring stories - dog fights and pissy hippies are much more fun.


Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi
 
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There is another great story - this one isn't from my shop - about a repair person (also a very good repair person) who had someone bring in an old dirty as hell Martin Classical. She performed the setup, and as any conscientious repair person would, cleaned all the dirt and grim off the guitar (and there was a LOT - as in caked on mud and crud). The customer comes in to pick it up, and she pulls out the case and proudly (well, one assumes proudly, as it makes for a better story) opens it up to show the customer. His face goes absolutely aghast, and in a horified tones says, "what did you do - that was Woodstock dirt!" He made her dig all the cleaning rags out of the trash (which ,fortunately, she hadn't taken out yet!)

The important point there? Always ask before you do ANYTHING.



Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi

a similar lesson I learned on a piano tuning.
when I was a young tuner I went out in the country to tune this piano and it was horribly out of tune. You guys would be very surprised how badly some people will let their pianos get.
So all the unisons had very strong beats because they were out of tune with each other so even a single note on this piano had all kinds of beats in it.
Nowadays I would tell the people they need 3 tunings and some follow up work and I'd charge 'em for it but back then I was new so I simply spent about 3 hours getting it straightened out.
So the same thing, the lady comes in and I'm all proud of my hard work and how well I have it in tune but she plays a couple of chords and says, "Where's the vibrato?"
:D
I say, "Well there's not supposed to be any vibrato if it's in tune."
She says, "Well we liked it ..... it sounds pretty"

So she made me go down the piano and knock a string in each 3-string unison out of tune so they'd have their vibrato back!

:D
 
LOL! That's hilarious!

And that's not vibrato, it's tremolo! Where's Leo when you need him?
 
a similar lesson I learned on a piano tuning.
when I was a young tuner I went out in the country to tune this piano and it was horribly out of tune. You guys would be very surprised how badly some people will let their pianos get.
So all the unisons had very strong beats because they were out of tune with each other so even a single note on this piano had all kinds of beats in it.
Nowadays I would tell the people they need 3 tunings and some follow up work and I'd charge 'em for it but back then I was new so I simply spent about 3 hours getting it straightened out.
So the same thing, the lady comes in and I'm all proud of my hard work and how well I have it in tune but she plays a couple of chords and says, "Where's the vibrato?"
:D
I say, "Well there's not supposed to be any vibrato if it's in tune."
She says, "Well we liked it ..... it sounds pretty"

So she made me go down the piano and knock a string in each 3-string unison out of tune so they'd have their vibrato back!

:D

...................I would have put thumb tacks on the hammers and really perk it up.
 
One thing about a partial refret as opposed to a full one that I don't think was mentioned is that it would seem to me (I've never done one, myself) that with a full refret all the frets start out the same height, so leveling would be much easier than installing a few frets and then trying to make them match the old ones. That would contribute to a partial refret being as (or nearly as) expensive as a full one.

My opinion on the appearance of the nut is to just get over it. If you were that attached to the way it looks, then you should have said something about it; most folks would not care about that, and anyway it's spilt milk now.

As to the feel of the guitar, the variables are adjustable and most any tech won't have a problem with doing a tweak of his setup job free of charge if you can tell them specifically what it is that you don't like about it. Simply saying "it doesn't feel right" is a bit hard to fix, though. Maybe if you sat down with the tech and showed him where you are having difficulty he could figure out what you want.
 
There is another great story - this one isn't from my shop - about a repair person (also a very good repair person) who had someone bring in an old dirty as hell Martin Classical. She performed the setup, and as any conscientious repair person would, cleaned all the dirt and grim off the guitar (and there was a LOT - as in caked on mud and crud). The customer comes in to pick it up, and she pulls out the case and proudly (well, one assumes proudly, as it makes for a better story) opens it up to show the customer. His face goes absolutely aghast, and in a horified tones says, "what did you do - that was Woodstock dirt!" He made her dig all the cleaning rags out of the trash (which ,fortunately, she hadn't taken out yet!)

The important point there? Always ask before you do ANYTHING.
Funny you should mention that story. Though the tech milled and re-shaped the nut, completely recalibrated and re-set the bridge, and changed the action and feel of the strings and the entire guitar, there was one thing he didn't do... clean and polish the bridge and the unmilled portion of the nut. Why?

Because he thought that I wouldn't like the change if he had.

Yeah.

DrewPeterson7 said:
HomeRec - for what it's worth, from the description you've given us, I don't think that it's fair to say the tech "screwed it up" when he set up your guitar. Rather, he seems to have done the sort of setup job that most of us would consider a good setup - he corrected your intonation (which was almost certainly off if it hadn't been set in 20 years) lowered your action, and straightened some excess bow out of the neck. Most people would pick up the "after" guitar and, comparing it to the "before" guitar, would say that it plays way better and your tech was pretty good.
That's the main reason I started this thread - I wanted to find out if he just went to town for the hell of it, or if what he did was in line with what "should" be done - which was my hunch, as everything he explained made sense. The general impression is exactly what you've said - he didn't do anything wrong from a technical point of view, but should maybe have asked beforehand, especially given the age of the guitar and the odd action. It feels "screwed up" to me, not because it's set up incorrectly, but completely differently than I'm used to.

My plan at this point is to give it a little while longer and then bring it back if I can't get used to the lower action. What you said about the bending is completely valid, and the main problem I think I'm having with the guitar. And your approach sounds right - everything is great, just not what I'm used to. The only thing I'm concerned about is his potential resistance to "screwing up" the guitar by setting the action back to the way it was before. But I'll deal with that when the time comes.

And yeah, I think I'll start researching doing my own setups once I get the time - if nothing else, it's a hell of a lot less expensive.

ggunn said:
My opinion on the appearance of the nut is to just get over it. If you were that attached to the way it looks, then you should have said something about it; most folks would not care about that, and anyway it's spilt milk now.
Obviously. Definitely should have said something. Especially as I had no idea that there was any possibility of anything like that happening. Silly me.

And you're right - no choice. I have to deal with it. Only had it for a couple of decades, ever since I started playing. No big deal. Just get over it.
 
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And you're right - no choice. I have to just deal with it. The paradigm shift is that the guitar I had once planned to hold on to forever is now, in my eyes, not the same guitar any more, and as such, not that special. Only had it for a couple of decades, ever since I started playing. No big deal. Get over it.

While I recognize the sarcasm there, my answer to it is yes, get over it. In the grand scheme of things, it really is no big deal. A mantra I use whenever something like this happens to me is this: "I'm going to have to get over this sooner or later; why not now?" Sometimes it works. :)

Anyone who has spent any amount of time walking this earth has many stories of bad stuff that wouldn't have happened had we done (or not done) something or other. Get over it. Time spent crying over spilt milk is time wasted, and life is short.
 
While I recognize the sarcasm there, my answer to it is yes, get over it. In the grand scheme of things, it really is no big deal. A mantra I use whenever something like this happens to me is this: "I'm going to have to get over this sooner or later; why not now?" Sometimes it works. :)

Anyone who has spent any amount of time walking this earth has many stories of bad stuff that wouldn't have happened had we done (or not done) something or other. Get over it. Time spent crying over spilt milk is time wasted, and life is short.
I understand that. I've just never been a fan of "you're being stupid for feeling bad" approach.

Realizing that I have no choice but to "get over it" doesn't make me any happier about it happening in the first place. That's all.

As to the grand scheme of things, you're right - to you, it probably isn't a big deal. However, in my experience, I've found that people attach different weight to different things. What may seem completely trivial to someone may seem fairly monumental to someone else, and vice-versa. So I try not to question peoples' motivations because, usually, I can't pretend to understand them on their level. But that's just my opinion.

P.S. - For what it's worth, the appearance of the nut isn't a huge thing at this point (except for the perception of the guitar which is, as you say, irreversible) - it's mostly the way it feels.
 
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And yeah, I think I'll start researching doing my own setups once I get the time - if nothing else, it's a hell of a lot less expensive.

It depends on how you look at it - for me, I do kind of enjoy doing my own tech work, so I don't mind the investment of time. If it's not something you enjoy, though, it may be "cheaper" just to pay someone else to do it, based on what sort of value you put on your time.

But yeah, action is a very personal preference, and some people like it higher than others - there's nothing wrong with bringing it back to the guy and saying, "listen, I tried, but I just can't get on with this." My only suggestion would be to get in touch with him soon and let him know you're, maybe not unhappy with the setup, but having a hard time getting used to the lower action, and ask him if after another week or so you still don't feel comfortable on the guitar, if he'd be willing to raise the action back a bit for you. If you come back out of the blue a month down the road, I suspect he'd be a little taken aback, whereas if you contact him soon after you get the guitar back he'll probaby just offer to comp you the adjustment free of charge.
 
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