Guitar Cabinet, Control Room Solutions

[baker_]

What are some of your best recommendations concerning this issue:

I want to have a guitar cabinet in another room about 30' from my control room. I already have mic lines run from the control room to the room where the cab will be. I want the player, whether it by myself or someone else, to be in the control room listening through the monitors. If I were to simply run a long instrument cable from the guitar to the amp head would I suffer from signal quality degradation due to resistance?

I've also read that having the amp head in the control room and running a long speaker cable from the head to the cab is a great way to be able to stay in the control room and still be able to make adjustments basically at your fingertips. Again, would I suffer from any loss of quality due to the long cable? Also, since I really like this method, what are some recommendations of speaker cables you have that can run from amp head to cabinet?

A third option I have read about is unique. It employs the use of a wireless guitar system. Though pricey, I see a few immediate benefits including; lack of a mess, keeping guitarists in the same room as the drummer while allowing isolation from the drum set, and also the ability for the player to remain in the control room during recording.

Of these three options (and please recommend more if you have then) my favorite is the second option. I would like to be able to make minor tone adjustments easily, in front of the monitors, in the control room.

Thanks in advance for you comments and thoughts!

Best,
John

 

[DrewPeterson7]

Of these three options (and please recommend more if you have then) my favorite is the second option. I would like to be able to make minor tone adjustments easily, in front of the monitors in the control room.

It's also the best solution. A wireless will most likely have some signal degradation, and you run the risk of radio interference. A long instrument cable will provide audible degradation to your guitar signal, but a speaker cable, within reason (and 30' is easily within reason) will not.

 

[starbuck26]

It's also the best solution. A wireless will most likely have some signal degradation, and you run the risk of radio interference. A long instrument cable will provide audible degradation to your guitar signal, but a speaker cable, within reason (and 30' is easily within reason) will not.

+1. Yep, this is how it's done.

Also, you should read this: http://www.aqdi.com/cablecap.htm

I also don't understand why you can't have the guitar player in the live room playing along with the drummer with a pair of cans on his head. Just run his cable to his amp in the control room and send him a mix to his head. Bingo.

 

[baker_]

I also don't understand why you can't have the guitar player in the live room playing along with the drummer with a pair of cans on his head. Just run his cable to his amp in the control room and send him a mix to his head. Bingo.

This is how I normally do it. The first reason I don't want to do it this way anymore are the inconveniences it causes me when I play. When I work on my own projects, I have to run the console and play. Walking back and forth stinks.

The second reason I want to do it differently is because I want the guitarists to hear through the monitors rather than standing in front of their amps. The reason I want this is for establishing trust. I work with a lot of inexperienced players and convincing them to change their tone a bit or to turn down some gain or distortion can get old. If they can hear what I am hearing in the control room, and they understand that it's essentially what it will sound like in the final mix, they may be more inclined to listen and trust my judgment. It's psychological.

I think I am definitely going with option two then. Are there any suggestions to what brands of speaker cables? Also, when I go down this route I may want to make it a more permanent change. Would 50-60' of speaker cable begin to degrade any signal quality?

Thanks all.

 

[miroslav]

I do my own recording while I play...and while it's a bit of a juggle to Start/Stop recording with a guitar slung around your neck...it's not a big deal once I have my basic levels set.
I just give myself enough pre-roll time if I plan on walking back to the amp...though even that's not a big deal, since I don't use a "control room" setup. My studio is one open space.

But one thing to consider is that "most" guitar players like to interact WITH the amp/speaker...and their playing often feeds off the sound coming from the speaker...even when they are wearing headphones.
They feel the power from the amp.
Kinda' hard to do that with control room monitors... ...and IMO, you will get more guys bitching about the sound when they hear it in the control room than when they are at their amps.

It's up to you, the engineer, to allow the player their comfort zone...while at the same time, adjusting the mics/EQ, whatever so that you are getting what you want in the control room.

I'm curious...how do you deal with drummers, bass players, keyboard players...etc....?
Do they all end up in the control room listening through the monitors as they play instead playing out in the studio and using cans?

 

[DrewPeterson7]

I think I am definitely going with option two then. Are there any suggestions to what brands of speaker cables? Also, when I go down this route I may want to make it a more permanent change. Would 50-60' of speaker cable begin to degrade any signal quality?

Not Monster.

I've been told that anything under 100 feet is pretty safe for a speaker cable, but that's secondhand so I can't claim to have tested it myself. I think I use a 6-8' speaker cable myself, simply because since I'm working in my bedroom, my control room IS my live room.

 

[miroslav]

For longer amp-to-speaker runs (anything beyond 6 feet) ...I just use extra-heavy duty 10 gauge speaker wire.

I buy it by the roll at Radio Shack or Home Depot. It's the clear jacket kind, with braided copper strands....and I make my own to any length I need.
I have several lengths made...that way if I want to try a different cabinet with a particular amp...I don't need to move the amps/cabs around...I just grab a longer speaker wire.

It's a bit of a bitch soldering on the extra-thick gauge to the 1/4" connectors...but there's less issue with resistance over longer runs...if you are picky about your signal.

 

[baker_]

I do my own recording while I play...and while it's a bit of a juggle to Start/Stop recording with a guitar slung around your neck...it's not a big deal once I have my basic levels set.
I just give myself enough pre-roll time if I plan on walking back to the amp...though even that's not a big deal, since I don't use a "control room" setup. My studio is one open space.

But one thing to consider is that "most" guitar players like to interact WITH the amp/speaker...and their playing often feeds off the sound coming from the speaker...even when they are wearing headphones.
They feel the power from the amp.
Kinda' hard to do that with control room monitors... ...and IMO, you will get more guys bitching about the sound when they hear it in the control room than when they are at their amps.

It's up to you, the engineer, to allow the player their comfort zone...while at the same time, adjusting the mics/EQ, whatever so that you are getting what you want in the control room.

I'm curious...how do you deal with drummers, bass players, keyboard players...etc....?
Do they all end up in the control room listening through the monitors as they play instead playing out in the studio and using cans?

Snark.
First of all, the bitching is what I want, essentially. When the guitarist hears how crappy his bass-heavy, over-distorted mess of chords sounds, he begins to understand that, occasionally, I know what I am talking about, and will be less apprehensive about changing that tone.

Secondly, I will normally let the guitarist stay in the live room with the cab for initial tracking. For overdubs, solos, and leads I like to bring the players in the control room. In my experiences, with the guitarists I have worked with, this has been the better way to do things. I realize this system does not work for every guitarist. I am usually sensitive enough to the situation, and know to ask the player what s/he prefers.

So, miroslav, I appreciate your input on the topic of comfort, but for now will respectfully ignore it. I'll also be ignoring your personal jabs near the end of your post. In the past, I have listened to your recordings on your studio's website, and have always admired your professionalism. That being said, I thank you for the actual constructive components of your post. They are greatly appreciated, and I will be looking further into your suggestions.

 

[miroslav]

So, miroslav, I appreciate your input on the topic of comfort, but for now will respectfully ignore it. I'll also be ignoring your personal jabs near the end of your post. In the past, I have listened to your recordings on your studio's website, and have always admired your professionalism. That being said, I thank you for the actual constructive components of your post. They are greatly appreciated, and I will be looking further into your suggestions.

It's not a "personal jab"...those are "tongue-in-cheek" questions/comments.

You asked for some recommendations...however, if you were already convinced that bringing the heads into the control room was your only course of action, than I can see how anything to the contrary might seem as a "negative" jab.
While my end-point comments were somewhat "tongue-in-cheek"…they were also realistic.
I mean...lets assume the drummer is bitching about his recorded drum sound...how DO you deal with that, not to mention any of the other players? You can’t bring everything into the control room.

I guess I'm not sure why you are singling out just the guitar players?
Are you trying to suggest that they are the most difficult to work with?

AFA the topic of “comfort”…I will respectfully disagree.
IMO, being comfortable when you record is the MOST important aspect…not mic placement, or amp settings…etc.
If you have a player/singer twitching and fidgeting because you’ve forced them to do something much differently than they are comfortable with…well, good luck getting great takes.
As someone who records himself all the time…I know how weird it can be playing with headphones on…or even listening to the initial playback on the monitors, or using click-tracks, etc, etc…but, my ears are use to it, just like I’m sure your ears are. You and I know how to listen past all that other stuff and we still focus on the tracking, and even if it sounds a bit weird to us, we know it will work.
People who are not studio veterans often need kid-gloves treatment…they’re often not comfortable just stepping into the studio.

Kinda’ funny story…
I once moved a guy’s pedals about 6 inches because I thought they were in a bad spot.
He proceeded to fidget through about 3 takes (I could see something was bugging him)…finally he stops playing and asks…Can I move the pedals, they are not comfortable for me there?
So…he was actually afraid at first to ask, ‘cuz he probably assumed THAT’S where they HAD to be for “recording” purposes…but once he did, I learned a valuable lesson about “comfort”.

I guess what I’m saying is that if they just end up bitching about having to play in the control room instead of by their amp…you may still not have gained anything.

 

[DrewPeterson7]

Still, I think the option to isolate the monitor sound from the "live in room" sound is valuable. Even if the guitarist will want to go back into the live room to track, there's definitely a value in being able to hear the guitar through the monitors while dialing in a sound.

Guitarists are weird like that. A good friend of mine is a riffing machine when he's in the room with a loud amp, but I once watched him try to record in a situation where his amp (a rack with a solid state poweramp) was very quiet, against live drums, and he just had a hell of a time nailing a take. Finally, he got the first half of the song done, so rather than trying again (as the engineer suggested - I was just along for the ride) I suggested he left it for now and tried to double his first performance, with the sound of his original take coming back through the monitors (it wasn't much of a studio so the guy didn't really have a good way to input monitor). He nailed it.

 

[miroslav]

Still, I think the option to isolate the monitor sound from the "live in room" sound is valuable.

I don't disagree...but I usually accomplish that through "playbacks" after takes.
I really DONT see as much value in hearing the playback for setting tones WHILE tracking. Hearing playback while you track is more for cue purposes (for the player)...it's the engineer that is listening to the sound.
Plus...you are not going to stop in the middle of a take to adjust your amp tone...so any way you cut it, you end up listening to the *playbacks* in order to make decisions about your settings.
And for that...you really don't need the amp in the control room...unless it's just too much trouble walking in and out of the control room.

Did you ever notice how when you play you are more focused on the playing...and then when you sit down to listen to the playback, that's when you REALLY hear how it sounded.

 

[DrewPeterson7]

I don't disagree...but I usually accomplish that through "playbacks" after takes.

I do that too, but it's REALLY not optimal. The way it's usually done in pro studios, where you have an assistant in the live room sweeping a mic back and forth until you get to the sweet spot, and you ignore the live sound and just listen through the monitors while playing something, is FAR and away easier than making an adjustment, trying to block out the room sound leaking through 'phones to see if it's any good, and then recording and playing back to see if you got it right or not. The same could be argued for being able to hit a chord, then twist a knob and listen to how it changes through the monitors.

I could see this being a much easier way to dial in a guitar.

 

[baker_]

Miroslav, you're correct on stating that I was pretty much dead-set on the isolation options, which in turn made me interpret your humor as something more than jest. My apologies. Furthermore, I wasn't completely ignoring the idea of the player being comfortable. I feel as though something was lost in translation there. Comfort is a priority. For most of the players I know (including myself), wearing headphones is cumbersome and annoying. Sitting in the control room in a nice comfortable chair, or standing, or whatever has always been more comfortable for me.

And no, guitarists are usually the EASIEST people to work with in my experience. Bassists, especially, have been very easy going as well. Drummers and vocalists cause me the most problems "behaviorally", especially drummers during the mixing stage. That's another story...


I've looked into the speaker cabling at Radio Shack. Good tip. Any recommendations on 1/4" jacks to solder? Also, why the no to Monster cables? I know they are expensive, but in everything I've used that's unrelated to this particular type of product, Monster has always made high quality products

 

[miroslav]

I do that too, but it's REALLY not optimal. The way it's usually done in pro studios, where you have an assistant in the live room sweeping a mic back and forth until you get to the sweet spot...

You have a studio assistant?
Must be nice!

I'm talking more about us "home/project" guys...especially those of us that record alone.
Record and playback is the only workable option.

But even if you have an assistant, most times you are tracking against other "raw" tracks and not the edited/polished mix, so IMHO...it’s hard to know if you have THE perfect sound for your guitar.
I kinda' chuckle at all the 1/4" this way-that way adjustments some guys go through when trying to mic a cab...and then when it's time to actually do the final mix they have +/- 10dB on some of their mixer’s EQ bands!!!

But I'm not looking to get into all that...as I think everyone needs to do whatever it is they think works for them. I can dig everyone needing the right Mojo to make it work.
I can’t record well without turning on my lava lamp.
Anyway…I’m not really against the amp head in the control room…it was just the thought of “forcing” that approach on only the guitarist.

baker....

One thing you can try is using semi-open back headphones instead of closed ones. You still get most of the room sound, plus you hear the canned sound…you just have to find a nice balance with levels. Sometimes just standing an extra foot away from the amp/speakers and turning a certain way gives you the right mix, and you don’t need to crank the headphone volume.

I think the reason Drew said "no Monster" is because it's overrated and overpriced.
For a good 1/4" plug...you can't miss with Switchcraft...just get the ones that have the extra sleeve crimps on the tail, and then also put a 4" piece of heat-shrink over the plug and sleeve for added relief.
They will last a long time….

 

[baker_]

The open back headphones have been used successfully; I can attest to their value personally.
Thanks again for the specific recommendations. I'll have some shopping to do this weekend!

 

[Creamyapples1]

We just tested a few long runs at our "studio" a few weeks ago.

Our iso room is a decent distance from the gear in the live room so we were exploring our options. We used two Studio Projects C4: 1 with an 10ft cable straight to the board and the other with a 10ft cable to a stage snake to the board. Placed the mics on a stereo bar, equal distance from the snare.

There was no noticable difference in sound quality or strength.

I also use around 50ft of guitar cable when recording guitars and drums at the same time. No degredation issues to speak of. I LOVE to be standing in the same room with a loud as hell amplifier while I'm playing but I play a helluva lot better when I have personal interaction with my drummer while we're tracking.

KT

*edit* the stage snake was 50ft. I guess that's pretty pertinent to the conversation.

We did this the same night we did a shootout between the Studio Projects C4s and MSH-1Cs both as drum overheads. I still prefer the C4s because they've got the roll off option and the MSH-1Cs pickup well into the low end but damn was it a close call! Our drummer failed the "which is the 400 dollar set of mics and which is the 40 dollar set of mics" challenge. Just in case anyone was curious. I always say this and never do, but I'll see about posting some clips sometime.

 

[miroslav]

Our drummer failed the "which is the 400 dollar set of mics and which is the 40 dollar set of mics" challenge.

No surprise...drummers can't hear very well.

 

[chamelious]

Just to add my 2 bits as a guitarist who dabbles in recording, i'd always prefer to be in the control room. Sat down in a comfortable position, no headphones, monitors at a sensible level.

 

[miroslav]

That was one of the reasons I set up my studio with no formal control room.

I like to be in the room when others are playing...and when I'm doing my own stuff, I don't want to have to walk in/out of separate rooms.

I've not had any real issues working without a control room. It's not hard to isolate a single person or amp if needed, and then there is a much more interaction between all the people.

The only "downside" is that everyone has to use headphones, including me, when I am engineering...but it's not a problem, because I do all my setup during the sound-check and warm-up phase. When the tracking begins, I just hit Record and sit back. I rarely make any changes during actual tracking. I'll often stand up away from the console and direct the players, give signal cues and whatever is needed to keep things moving smoothly. There really little need to makes console/equipment changes as you track if everything was set up the right way to begin with.

Then for playback...no one has to "come in" to the control room...they just stand where they were and they can hear the monitors...plus I have a another set of monitors for the "live" area of the studio.

Works well for me.

 

[DrewPeterson7]

You have a studio assistant?
Must be nice!

I'm talking more about us "home/project" guys...especially those of us that record alone.
Record and playback is the only workable option.

Ok, I don't know if you're trying to be a smartass, or just not good via text...

I think it's pretty clear ("I do that too" and "in pro studios, they generally...") that I also have to do my final check listening to a playback. However, that's really not the best way to go - it's kind of time-consuming, for one, and I don't know about you, but given the choice in an ideal situation, I'd rather just listen and shout out commands until I dug what I was hearing, rather than recording, playing back, listening, moving, recording, playing back, listening ten or fifteen times before I got something I was perfectly happy with. Since my comment was pretty clearly about the way it's done in a proper studio instead of by a bedroom hobbyist like you or I, I don't really see what the point of intentionally jumping in with an "Ah HA! But I'm working in a bedroom without an assistant!" or how that adds anything of value to this conversation.

I'm sure the OP is a big boy and can make the relative value call over which works best for him based on his own particular scenario without nit-picking for you to trey to score points in some debate in your head or something.

Re: the actual good point you bring up about dialing in a tone against raw tracks, while that may be true that's just as valid a criticism as it would be for micing drums, dialing in a bass sound, choosing a vocal mic, etc. I don't see the point. Also, I'm definitely of the "get it right while tracking, the less EQ the better" school of mixing (it helps that I tend to like a pretty live, organic sounding mix), so for me that isn't really a huge issue anyway - I can't tell you the last time I've done a 10db cut on ANYTHING (barring a high pass at or below the instrument's fundamental).

The reason I refuse to have anything to do with Monster is, well, this is a pretty good starting point:

http://www.audioholics.com/news/editorials/monster-cable

They've sort of gotten into the habit of suing anyone who uses the word "Monster" in their company name, from Monster's Ball and Monsters, Inc to, well, in this case, Monster Republic baby clothing. The Blue Jeans Cable open letter is fucking AWESOME (the dude evidently was a successful copyright lawyer, which Monster evidently wasn't aware of, before he retired and started making cables), by the way, and if you want a good speaker cable from someone other than Monster then I think there's something appropriate in maybe talking to them.