Guitar/bassists... check out this cheap easy upgrade...

[tubedude]

Let's just say that I remain skeptical on that point. Show me the numbers.



Being a guitar god doesn't automatically make one a genius (or even adept) at electronics or acoustics. Eric Johnson, for example, is a guitar god, and there are several technical points upon which we disagree. Of course, he's Eric, and he can configure his gear any way he wants and spend his substantial money however it blows his skirt up, but that doesn't make him correct in his assertions.

Dude, if numbers make ANY difference, I can sell you a mic for $80 that sounds EXACTLY like a Elux 251. You know better than THAT crap. You listen, and you hear it, thats all the numbers you need. If you dont hear it, doesnt mean its not true, just not true to you. It was obvious, enough said. And I'm a skeptic myself.
And, the dude was an electrical engineer, built consoles, and is designing electrical pieces for studios right now. He was the guitar player in Accept. His studio sounds fab and as far as I know was designedby him. Thats enough for me man. The fact he Mixed Master of Puppets sells me on anything he does

 

[Light]

Well, we were sitting around talking, and he asked me if I had ever heard of or ever used the Redeemer.
"Nope"
He gets a little excited and digs out this little box with what appeared to be a guitar jack wired to a little box with a 9 volt battery plug hooked to it. (Check it out at www.creationaudiolabs.com) You basically cut your guitar jack out, and put this on in its place, and hook the two stray wires to where your jack originally was hooked into the guitar, and it completely unloads your guitar pickup. He went and pulled a guitar off the wall that had one in it with a push/pull bypass knob, and we went into the room and plugged it into the RM20b and fired it up. He had me play for a minute with the jack pulled out (bypassed) and then he pushed it in. The difference in clarity and realism was enough to take your head off. We had to back off the treble and presence because the sound went from average to this open, crystal clear sound like nothing you'd never really imagine. He said it loads the pickup at like 3,000,000 ohms (yes 3 million) or something to that effect, and shows the amp something like 31 ohms. Big difference in tone. And with the pushpull, it gives you tonal options that you could use sometimes, other times dont. Check it out they are like $100 and some change.

It's just a buffer amp. Nothing revolutionary about that, though if you are going to use one it is certainly better to get it as close to the pickups as possible. The impedence of guitar pickups is high enough that you will get very noticable signal degradation after about 20 feet, and a lot of people claim to hear it after about 10 feet. By the way, the parts for that thing cost about $5.00 wholesale.

But there is a problem with buffer amps. If you are using any effects, a wireless system, or a very long cable (more than 20 feet); then there is no problem, and you should absolutely be using a buffer amp somewhere (most really high end effects these days have buffer amps, which is a much better solution to the effect "loading" issue than a true bypass system). The problem comes when you use no effects (and I DON'T mean you turn them off, I mean they are not in your chain at all).

There is an interaction between the pickups and the first preamp tube in a real tube amp. If you've ever played a good simple tube amp design (old Fender and Marshal style stuff), you will know exactly what I am talking about. When you have your guitar turned up all the way, it has a certain sound. Turn that volume control down just a hair, and you get a very different sound. Turn it down a little more, and you get a whole other sound. It is very interactive, and once you get used to it, it is how you get different sounds. You don't need a channel switching amp, you just turn down a little. The volume doesn't change much (if it changes at all), but the tone and sound cleans up a lot. If you need a little more dirt, turn it up a bit.

As soon as you put that buffer in line, you loose that interaction. It's gone. You will still get some change just from not driving the tube as hard, but a lot of what is going on is the interaction between the input impedence of the tube and the output impedence of the pickups. On my amps I have gotten rid of the second input so that I don't even have the "mix" resistors you usually see in most old Fender amps, which makes that interaction even more pronounced. That part of the interaction is lost if you buffer the pickups at all, and I for one HATE to loose that part of the sound.

Now, I'm not saying that it isn't a good thing in many situations. As I said, if you have any effects in your chain which are not true bypass, the buffer will make your sound a lot better. But then, if you have any effects in your chain which are not true bypass, you may as well not even bother with a tube amp. Well, almost.

As for George L's, they have very low capacitace, but you have to be pretty careful. The first time your drummer drops a cymbal on them, they are toast. They may be easy to fix, but I like my old Spectraflex cables much better. They have a capacitance which is almost as low as the George L's, and they will probably survive the fork lift with a flat driving over them.

Well, maybe not that, but they will survive everything that a guitar cable is likely to be subject to.



Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi

 

[Light]

(I dont, but I do know its not an opamp or a resistor or antyihg like that, its a new idea and technology if I understand correctly)

No, it's a buffer amp with a marketing plan. That's it. Nothing wrong with that, people do it all the time. And while you may well be right that it is not an opamp, it most certainly has a resistor or 12 in there. Some caps too. And you don't need an opamp to make a buffer amp (though you can make a better one that way, at least these days), you DO need a transistor. Given the size, I'm betting on an opamp, but it could well be a transistor.

But while it IS unquestionably a buffer amp (and it is, what you discribe is EXACTLY what a good buffer amp will do), their only bullshit is in marketing. They are absolutely right about the "getting it as close to the pickups as possible" part, so their bullshit is realitivly minor. Bartolini makes some really nice buffers too, by the way.


Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi

 

[Light]

Dude, if numbers make ANY difference, I can sell you a mic for $80 that sounds EXACTLY like a Elux 251. You know better than THAT crap. You listen, and you hear it, thats all the numbers you need. If you dont hear it, doesnt mean its not true, just not true to you. It was obvious, enough said. And I'm a skeptic myself.
And, the dude was an electrical engineer, built consoles, and is designing electrical pieces for studios right now. He was the guitar player in Accept. His studio sounds fab and as far as I know was designedby him. Thats enough for me man. The fact he Mixed Master of Puppets sells me on anything he does

The trick to guitar cables is capacitance. George L's are the lowest capacitance cables on the market. All cables are capacitors (after all, a capacitor is just two conductors seperated by an insulator). The less capacitance the better, at least to most people.

There is, by the way, a very real reason that capacitance matters in guitar cables (though it does not matter hardly at all with mike cables). The impedence of a guitar pickup is fairly high. Because of that, a high capacitance cable will act like a parallel cap to ground, which if you know anything about guitar electronics means that it acts like a tone control being turned down. The higher the capacitance, the worse the problem.

(By the way, I noticed he had you turn the buffer amp off before you tried the cable switch. You need to, because the much lower impedance coming out of the buffer means that the cable would make much less difference, and very likely it would make no audable difference at all).

Of course, there are guys who LIKE the capacitance. I think it was Albert Colins who used a 150 foot cable all the time because it sounded better to him. Other guys like the sound of a loaded down pickup. I know a guy who says his guitar sounds wrong if his wah (with out a buffer or a true bypass) is not in line loading down his pickup. Everyone has their own sound, and none of them are wrong, just different.

Personally, I don't find cables make enough of a difference to worry too much about them. I bought the Spectraflex cables I use because they are basically bullet proof, which I like. I only found out their capacitance was as low as it is a few years after I bought them.

So yes, with a guitars high impedance, a low capacitance cable such as a George L can make a difference. Not a night and day difference, but a difference. It is not going to make you like the sound of a guitar you don't currently like, but it can subtly alter a sound you already like, maybe for the better (that would be a matter of opinion, and is between you, your guitar, and your amp).


Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi

 

[Light]

Why? The resistance, capacitance, and inductance values for even a pretty long length of cable are minuscule compared to that of the pickup and the input Z of the buffer.

Guitars have fairly high impedance. Short cable runs are not a huge problem, but they will make a difference. The high input impedance of this thing will make that even more of an issue (3 meg ohms did he say? Normally guitars amps are 1 meg, so that's pretty high).


Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi

 

[travelin travis]

i don't mean to hijack this thread but i came across this thing the other day:

http://www.acmeguitarworks.com/BPSSC-System-P1216C65.aspx

it seems awfully expensive for the parts involved and appears to be nothing more than a coil of wire and a couple of components. have you tried one of these Light?

 

[Light]

i don't mean to hijack this thread but i came across this thing the other day:

http://www.acmeguitarworks.com/BPSSC-System-P1216C65.aspx

it seems awfully expensive for the parts involved and appears to be nothing more than a coil of wire and a couple of components. have you tried one of these Light?

Yeah, we've installed one of those. It doesn't elemenate the hum, but it makes a big difference. It's like most dummy coils, in that it has some effect on the sound of the pickups, but less than other systems.

On the whole, though, we thought it was an OK idea for someone who has a big problem with their Strat.


Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi

 

[tubedude]

I emailed them and asked about it, I think they are being a little bit quiet about what it actually is because they are waiting for a patent. I do know that because the output resistance was so low that you could plug the thing directly into a converter and get enough level to record it, which would be perfect for reamping, which is what I kind of want to use it for.
Here was the reply I got this morning

"
Here’s a comparison

A regular old buffer that you can get anywhere vs. the Redeemer.



A buffer is either going to use FETs which color the sound or Op-Amps which eat batteries. Also op-amps are designed with a lot of added circuitry you don’t need for a guitar to make them compatible with other uses (transmitting data for instance), All that added circuitry compromises the noise floor and signal purity.



The Redeemer is not based on FETs or Op-Amps – It doesn’t color the sound, eat batteries or add noise - the current production Redeemers are Flat within a few hundredth of a dB from 10HZ to 50KHz. The distortion is less than 0.0002% which is about 10 times better than a typical op-amp and a couple of hundred times better than a FET buffer. The noise floor is difficult to measure because it is lower than the test equipment we have available but with the help of Dale Manquen it was calculated to be about -145dBu.



They draw less than 2.5mA so a new 9V battery will last for about 300 hours (long life means you can just change the battery when you change the strings). Also, the current production Redeemer is designed to allow some signal to pass even when the battery is dead – other buffers just die completely – if the Redeemer’s battery dies in the middle of a show (what happens is that you loose a little level and high end) you can still get through the night even if you don’t install the optional bypass switch.



The typical FET buffer has an input impedance of a 2 to 4 Megs, and an output impedance of several hundred or a couple of K ohms. The current Redeemer is about 20M on the input and less than 35 ohms on the output. All that means is that the pick-ups are completely unloaded and the output can drive anything – even directly into a mic or line input on a mixer or computer. Kind of like having a direct box straight from the guitar jack.



I guess saying the Redeemer is just a regular old buffer and you can get those anywhere is like saying a diamond is just a regular old piece of carbon and you can buy charcoal anywhere ;-)"

Take it as you will I guess. I still want one and will probably get one.

 

[Light]

edited for length

So what they are saying is it is a very high quality buffer amp. OK, fine, maybe. But the input and output impedence of a buffer amp is whatever the designer decides to make it. It is set (primaraly) by two resistors (one for input, one for output) in parallel to ground. That's it (well, it can be two resistors, depending on how you make it). What they are talking about it, by definition, a buffer amp. Now, they may have some design choices which are different, and they may be using very high end components, but it is still a buffer amp. Anything else is just marketing.


Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi

 

[Thurgood]

Go Light go! Thanks for your analysis, input etc.. I have built a couple of buffers DIY and find them to be a nice option for my passive git p/u's. They are easy to build and cheap. 3 or four resistors 2 caps ( this varies some depending on flitering and power requitrements ) one transistor, battery clip, housing ... you get the picture. About 5 bucks. I am intersted in the George L cables and have "heard" good things about them. However, my needs are easily met with less expensive alternatives eg. make your own as needed and cheap.

 

[Thurgood]

One more thought. Went to the website for the redeemer... Booster for 250.00 bucks. ???? Crack anyone?? that is unreal. Ok, so silent switching big deal.. What has the world come to. Linear power booster= easy project. Not 250.00. Try 5.00.

 

[ggunn]

Dude, if numbers make ANY difference, I can sell you a mic for $80 that sounds EXACTLY like a Elux 251. You know better than THAT crap. You listen, and you hear it, thats all the numbers you need. If you dont hear it, doesnt mean its not true, just not true to you. It was obvious, enough said. And I'm a skeptic myself.
And, the dude was an electrical engineer, built consoles, and is designing electrical pieces for studios right now. He was the guitar player in Accept. His studio sounds fab and as far as I know was designedby him. Thats enough for me man. The fact he Mixed Master of Puppets sells me on anything he does

Well, whatever blows your skirt up. If you hear a difference, whether or not it's "really" there is immaterial. No disrespect intended, but the guy has a product to sell, so of course he's going to make it sound like the best idea since the humbucker. BTW (referring to a later post), IMO you'll never hear the diff between a -145 dB noise floor and a -100 dB noise floor. Also BTW, I'm an electrical engineer (BSEE University of Texas - Hook 'em!), too.

 

[ggunn]

Dude, if numbers make ANY difference, I can sell you a mic for $80 that sounds EXACTLY like a Elux 251.

I'd be willing to bet a considerable amount of change that the diff between your $80 mic and the Elux 251 (~$4800.00) can be unambiguously and objectively quantified.

 

[tubedude]

I'd be willing to bet a considerable amount of change that the diff between your $80 mic and the Elux 251 (~$4800.00) can be unambiguously and objectively quantified.

Where are you going here? My post was sarcastic... Is yours, or did you not catch my initial sarcasm?

 

[mshilarious]

Guitars have fairly high impedance. Short cable runs are not a huge problem, but they will make a difference. The high input impedance of this thing will make that even more of an issue (3 meg ohms did he say? Normally guitars amps are 1 meg, so that's pretty high).


Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi

I agree with everything Light has written in the last several posts

To expound a bit on this "3 Mohm" marketing stuff, what value is there in increasing the impedance of the buffer amp beyond 1M? Remember, there is a volume pot presenting a 250K or 500K ohm load to the pickup. You are only limiting the drop in parallel impedance below that, and really not that significantly.

This is something anybody could build (OK the apparent FET switching is clever, but most people wouldn't want the switch anyway--for different tonal options with one of these connected, try your tone knob ). If their circuit is so different, is there a patent application? Because there is a (probably bogus due to prior art) patent on the idea already.

In fact here is a page devoted to the topic:

http://www.till.com/articles/PreampCable/

 

[mshilarious]

I emailed them and asked about it, I think they are being a little bit quiet about what it actually is because they are waiting for a patent. I do know that because the output resistance was so low that you could plug the thing directly into a converter and get enough level to record it

OK there is no reason a FET (couple hundred ohms output impedance) cannot drive a converter, which should be 10K ohms input impedance. A guitar signal can be ~0.2V or so, a little shy for a -10dBV converter, but close enough.

A buffer is either going to use FETs which color the sound

FETs are generally regarded as desired for guitar and audio in general due to their tube-like nonlinearities . . .

All that added circuitry compromises the noise floor and signal purity.

OK, what is the noise floor of the average guitar pickup's interference signal? We are talking about a noisy device plugged into an even noisier device--a guitar amp!

The Redeemer is not based on FETs or Op-Amps

OK, a buffer circuit must be a current amplifier. Bottom line, no if ands or buts--somewhere in this thing there is either an electron tube or a semiconductor, which only come in a limited number of flavors--bipolar junction transistor, FET and various flavors thereof, optotransistors, and the latest and greatest oh how I can't WAIT for commercial products--the light-emitting transistor Maybe I left something out, but my point is, it's somewhere in the Digikey or Mouser catalog, no?

Which one is it?

– It doesn’t color the sound, eat batteries or add noise - the current production Redeemers are Flat within a few hundredth of a dB from 10HZ to 50KHz. The distortion is less than 0.0002% which is about 10 times better than a typical op-amp and a couple of hundred times better than a FET buffer. The noise floor is difficult to measure because it is lower than the test equipment we have available but with the help of Dale Manquen it was calculated to be about -145dBu.

Good for them, they have designed a tremendously good buffer circuit. That much I believe. Again, what is the point when applied to a notoriously noisy circuit, to a signal that is probably going to be subjected to hideous % (20, 30, you pick a number) of THD further down the chain?

They draw less than 2.5mA so a new 9V battery will last for about 300 hours (long life means you can just change the battery when you change the strings).

So? A 2.5mA draw is not particularly low.

The typical FET buffer has an input impedance of a 2 to 4 Megs, and an output impedance of several hundred or a couple of K ohms. The current Redeemer is about 20M on the input and less than 35 ohms on the output. All that means is that the pick-ups are completely unloaded and the output can drive anything – even directly into a mic or line input on a mixer or computer. Kind of like having a direct box straight from the guitar jack.

Few mics are 35 ohm output impedance, and they are just fine into 1K ohm input impedance. Why the hell do they need a 20M ohm input impedance when the freakin' volume pot is 250K ohm? Hence, the pickups are never "completely unloaded".


Look, I never said a buffer amp at the guitar plug isn't a good idea. It is a very good idea (save for Light's tube amp objection). In fact, it's so good that there is already a patent and a page devoted to DIY. This was over 10 years ago.

It could very well be that this device has higher performance specs than those DIY projects. So what? Again, consider the application. An electric guitar doesn't NEED those specs.

If this circuit is so great, it ought to be applied to condenser mics, where it actually could do some good . . .



Disclosure: I am somewhat biased in that while I don't have such a product, nor a plan to offer one (even bogus patents will dissuade the meek and mild), I do have an XLR mounted phantom-powered direct box that could be directly connected to a guitar using one of those dual pedal plugs. However, I consider that a sufficiently bizarre idea that I doubt anybody would try it, so I don't consider myself a competitor.

 

[Light]

OK, what is the noise floor of the average guitar pickup's interference signal? We are talking about a noisy device plugged into an even noisier device--a guitar amp!

This one is an extremly important point. Particularly since the place where this is going to make the biggest difference is when driving effects, which are notoriously noisy.


Light

"Cowrads can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi

 

[ggunn]

Where are you going here? My post was sarcastic... Is yours, or did you not catch my initial sarcasm?

No, I wasn't being sarcastic and I took your statement at face value, but that's beside the point. There is tons of what is IMO snake oil for sale out there in the music/audio world, touting such unmeasureable quantities as "clarity", "transparency", "tightness", et al. ad nauseum. I was talking about cables; your mic example is different, since S/N ratio, frequency response, transient response, SPL tolerance, etc. are all measureable quantities and measuring them would objectively point out the differences irrespective of what your ears tell you.

 

[turnitdown]

The guy also played guitar for Accept in the early days, and has about 30 guitars there, and has recorded some of the best rock tones of all time back in the 80's and 90's, and is still doing it.

I'm ashamed to know this, but wasn't Steve Lynch the guitarist for Accept?
He was good... a GIT grad I believe...

 

[tubedude]

I'm ashamed to know this, but wasn't Steve Lynch the guitarist for Accept?
He was good... a GIT grad I believe...

Well, Wagener was a forming member of Accept, and then backed out of it I beleive to start engineering for Dokken on thier first album. Wolfe (the other guitar player I know of in Accept) was the one that wrote "Balls to the walls" if I'm not mistaken. I beleive he (Wagener) engineered all of the Accept albums and then just got caught up in the engineering side and quit playing guitar for the most part. I met Wolf the other day too, he was actually there setting his shit up for a garage sale, ha. Moving back to Germany for a tour it seems.